Have you ever wondered what happens when you hit the like button on Facebook or other social media apps? Come take a journey with us into the hidden infrastructure that supports all of our online activities. In this episode, journalist and documentary filmmaker Guillaume Pitron discusses his new book “The Dark Cloud: how the digital world is costing the earth”, which is all about the environmental and social costs of living in an increasingly digitized world.
LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE
EPISODE LINKS
Digital clean up day https://www.digitalcleanupday.org/
Guillaume’s book “The Dark Cloud: how the digital world is costing the earth” ” https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Cloud-digital-world-costing-ebook/dp/B0BTJP9BD3
Follow Guillaume (on the website formerly known as Twitter) x.com/guillaumepitron
Explore Guillaumes website https://www.guillaumepitron.com/
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Speaker 1
Brought to you by Flow Spark Media.00;00;02;10 – 00;00;23;09
Speaker 2
Whether it’s an iPhone or whatever kind of smartphone, it conveys this idea of purity, of esthetic perfection. How do you want to believe this things? What is clean? What is beautiful? At least in your hand. What’s beautiful can be dirty. At the same time.00;00;23;12 – 00;00;52;10
Speaker 1
Welcome to another episode of the Synapse series on Science Centric. This series is where we have thought provoking conversations about science, society, and the natural world. And who am I? I am your host, Eric Olson, filmmaker, journalist, and all around curious, creative with a passion for science and nature. Before we jump in, just a quick reminder to rate this episode and leave us a review on whichever podcast platform you’re listening on, your reviews and comments help our show get noticed.00;00;52;11 – 00;01;16;17
Speaker 1
Thanks for helping this channel to grow and for making the world a little more science centric. Now the Western world has just finished its Christmas celebrations and as we’re heading into the New Year, people are naturally reflecting on the previous year and how they might do better in the next one. So I thought it would be a good time to talk to journalist Kian Petroni about his new book, The Dark Cloud.00;01;16;20 – 00;01;38;25
Speaker 1
It’s all about the environmental and social costs of the technology we carry around in our pockets every day and the massive infrastructure that supports it. The goal of this episode isn’t to shame people into not using digital technology. That would be a little hypocritical considering all of the technology used to create and distribute the very episode you’re listening to right now.00;01;38;29 – 00;02;04;15
Speaker 1
The goal is to encourage people to be a little more mindful about how they use technology. Despite feeling like the cloud exists everywhere and nowhere. All at once it does exist somewhere and it has real world impacts. So without further ado, here’s Gillam. Your new book is entitled The Dark Cloud. What is the Dark Cloud? I know that’s a broad topic and what makes it dark?00;02;04;17 – 00;02;31;14
Speaker 2
What’s the cloud? First, between you and I, there is a cloud. Whatever I’m seeing right now as I speak to you, is being stored in a cloud, which means in a server. And my voice then is taking the direction of your computer. And each and every day I will use a 100 clouds and you will use £100 on average.00;02;31;17 – 00;02;59;10
Speaker 2
Because whenever I send an email or whenever I swipe on a dating website, whenever I send a like or order pizza on a website, my information mind it is being stored into a server. And then the other person or the company wanting to get my information is connected to the same server. And this server is a cloud, which means data which is outsourced from a computer.00;02;59;13 – 00;03;26;27
Speaker 2
And wherever I am in the world, basically I will find this data back by email, for example, because it’s in the cloud. And the cloud is dark because actually it depends on the kind of electricity that makes the cloud run. The cloud needs to work 24/7, 365 days a year. There can be a interruption of the cloud because if there is an interruption, that means that you can’t certainly go on Internet.00;03;26;27 – 00;03;52;21
Speaker 2
You get to go on your email and you don’t imagine that you’d like to do on your Gmail account. And having the Web page of genius saying, Sorry, we’re down to back tomorrow, it’s just impossible. So because you want to be able to access your email, access, Facebook access, WhatsApp, access, chat, CBT, or whatever kind of web services at any time of the day.00;03;52;28 – 00;04;28;04
Speaker 2
The air. You need to make sure the companies of the cloud of reaching the cloud need to make sure that actually it’s running all the time. And that means that you will actually replicate the cloud several times so that if there’s one cloud running out of power like one warehouse with the servers inside, then you have replicated the same data in another server that will just immediately, instead of the first one, and make sure that actually there is no interruption of service.00;04;28;06 – 00;04;53;27
Speaker 2
And all this is very, very much electricity consuming. And depending on the kind of tricity that is being used for running a cloud, the cloud may be dark if the cloud is running out of power produced by a green electricity, by like wind farm or some form, it may be a green cloud. And when the cloud is running things to cool and made electricity all made, Kristie.00;04;54;01 – 00;05;15;08
Speaker 2
Gas made electricity, which is basically the first source of production of electricity today in the world where the cloud meets due to the risk for climate change. And it’s a dark cloud. So the book is entitled The Dark Cloud because it’s an investigation on the cloud.00;05;15;11 – 00;05;23;14
Speaker 1
So you’re you’re calling it the dark cloud because you’re saying that it primarily runs on coal. Is that correct?00;05;23;16 – 00;06;03;22
Speaker 2
Well, basically, I would answer bit differently. I would say the first sewers of electricity in the world today is fossil fuels. And the first way to produce electricity is is cool, but it’s also gas. Also oil. So when you make an addition of all these sources of electricity, when you want to heat yourself, when you want to run an electric car or when you want to use globally speaking Internet, you will use a tricity, which is produced out of this source of electricity, which are clean, right.00;06;03;25 – 00;06;48;11
Speaker 2
And which are emitting CO2 and which are responsible for climate change. And the thing is, the cloud is the American cloud. And I’m thinking about Microsoft Azure, for example, or Amazon Web service or maybe Google and well, Google. Well, there is a cloud was obviously and these companies are very much aware of, you know, this situation. And there’s been much more and more aware the last two years about this six two Greenpeace American by the way, because Greenpeace America spent years have been very much working on this and premature claiming in the public space that there is a link between the cloud and the warming and these companies which are in the United States running00;06;48;11 – 00;07;23;01
Speaker 2
the cloud after lots of efforts in order to actually change the electricity and produce and render cloud of electricity, which is coming from solar farms. So I don’t have specific figures speaking to you now, but there is a good chance that actually the cloud of the United States, at least of these three companies, which are very fortunate as you as you as you get into the cloud service industry, are running their electricity out of other sources of electricity.00;07;23;03 – 00;07;43;05
Speaker 2
But globally speaking, once again, Internet, which is everywhere from North Korea to the United States, from Chile to South Korea and and Japan and China and from export to batteries. Globally speaking, the electricity is first and foremost comes from dirty sources of electricity. So it’s it’s it’s fair to call the cloud globally speaking, the dark cloud.00;07;43;07 – 00;07;54;15
Speaker 1
Dark cloud. And do we have any sense of how much of the Internet is running on clean fuel versus dirty fuel or fossil fuels?00;07;54;17 – 00;08;23;22
Speaker 2
It’s very hard to tell. Yeah, very hard. Yeah. What first figures are not being updated every day and figures change very quickly because industry is changing for the industry as to this leak I mentioned between the cloud, which seems like something invisible and touchable actually, which is made of very tangible assets, very tangible infrastructures, and it’s linked to climate change.00;08;23;27 – 00;09;11;20
Speaker 2
So it’s changing very fast of figures which used to be produced by Greenpeace on a yearly basis, but it’s been produced by Greenpeace on such an annual basis anymore. So it’s very hard to give you a large figure. What I can tell you is that Internet with more generally the digital world, which goes from the mining, because you need resources coming from the ground, you need to unearth them in order to manufacture phones and servers and cables, but also the electricity for the cloud, electricity for running the cables, submarine cables, which is the only way to transmit 99% of the data between the continents going through the seas.00;09;11;25 – 00;09;37;25
Speaker 2
Yeah, this interesting being needed for this ecosystem, but we call the digital ecosystem. It requires 15% of the world production of electricity, 10%, 10%. If this figure into CO2 emission, into CO2 emissions. And we think that this figure has been produced and there is quite a consensus among with the searchers, it represents all persons of world CO2 emissions.00;09;38;01 – 00;10;11;14
Speaker 2
Okay. To give you a comparison, all the planes flying in the tops of the ETS, I’m talking about the commercial planes, civil planes, it’s amounts for 2.4% of world’s CO2 emissions And the Internet and the digital world in general accounts for 4%. And given the fact that we spend more and more time on the Web, given the fact that whatever I want to do and research on Google, I made sure to check GPG rather than Google, given the fact that there is every day a new way of using it.00;10;11;14 – 00;10;46;11
Speaker 2
And it’s for people, companies, for states, this impacts of the digital world and it’s getting higher and higher and higher. And some studies actually suggest and we might believe them that digital world as actually the fastest growing ecological impact of the planet than any other industry around the world and that some figure may become worldwide in terms of CO2 emission, maybe 8% within 15 years, 20 years.00;10;46;15 – 00;11;06;09
Speaker 2
I mean, that was the but I mean, that’s getting serious. And it’s time that we understand that there is nothing at all. There is nothing in much non-material or. Yeah, that’s the cloud is real. We do understand that we’re getting it if we’re getting a uniform. And that’s why I wanted to make this investigation of the cloud.00;11;06;11 – 00;11;25;22
Speaker 1
Hey there. If you made it this far through the episode, you’re probably enjoying this conversation. I’m learning a few new things along the way. If so, I’d really appreciate your support so we can bring you even more quality science and nature content to YouTube. Head on over to our Patreon page to find out how you can support us directly.00;11;25;25 – 00;11;54;15
Speaker 1
We have three tiers you can join. And they started only a dollar a month. The links in the description below and thank you to our existing patrons for their support. Now on with the show. So I’m in New York City and I was just down at the Google store in Manhattan and you go, I was just thinking about this as I was reading your book and you go in and it’s very clean and everything’s very white and there’s no cables anywhere.00;11;54;15 – 00;12;18;05
Speaker 1
And, you know, they have these lovely devices that are very sleek looking. But there’s all this, you know, your book is about all this stuff going on behind the scenes of that. And a lot of it’s very dirty, you know, in terms of of of mining and stuff. Could you just for for listeners, could you just take us through.00;12;18;07 – 00;12;40;18
Speaker 1
Let’s say you’re on Facebook and your your friend posts a photo or your family member posts a photo and you hit like, what happens? You know, it just seems magical almost. It seems just in this ether. But what is what happens when you click like on that on that photo?00;12;40;20 – 00;13;06;26
Speaker 2
Well, first, I’m I was interested in what you said walking in New York and passing by an apple shop. Everything is clean. And this is marketing. Makes you believe that’s what it’s about. The digital world. Everything is clean, everything is virgin. And this is very idea. I think we have a call with you. And that’s such a beautiful object.00;13;06;29 – 00;13;37;09
Speaker 2
That’s a piece of art. It’s so it’s pure. It conveys an idea of purity, right? There’s no button. And it was meant to be that way when when Steve Jobs, when he was producing, was just engineers and designers, The first iPhone said to his designers, I want a phone, an iPhone. Duke as pure as possible to convey this idea of purity like your Zen Buddhist temple used to say.00;13;37;11 – 00;14;07;07
Speaker 2
So he wasn’t Buddhist himself. Used to say that the esthetics of the Buddhist temple in Japan was a form of purification in terms of ethics. And so what you hold with nuance, whether it’s an iPhone or whatever kind of smartphone, it conveys this idea of purity, of artistic perfection. How do you want to believe this thing is? What is clean, what is beautiful, at least in your hand, what beautiful can be dirty at the same time?00;14;07;10 – 00;14;38;26
Speaker 2
So there is like it’s counter intuitive because your senses, when you view your eyes, you know what everyday people object, which doesn’t convey any moment. This idea that’s behind the phone. There’s something complex and it’s complex. It’s complex because you need visuals and making the phone Come to this Facebook question in a minute. Yeah, but because you want to make a phone, how can you need to extract the dozens, dozens of minerals from the ground?00;14;38;28 – 00;15;07;22
Speaker 2
And the future is aiming to phone to make everything work and behind every, you know, metal of your phone, whether it’s lithium, gallium, germanium, rare earths, lithium, graphite, indium, all these metals was then you might not be aware of, by the way require mining operations and that is not clean at all. And it it’s complex to extract them and to refine them and to process them and to transport them at the other end of the world.00;15;07;24 – 00;15;30;13
Speaker 2
All these complexities, that scene, and it’s just not even understandable because what you have was you answer simple, simple to use. And then I get back to you points. If I sit in like and face, well, that would be hard precisely to tell you about Facebook, because it depends where you are in the world. If you’re in the United States, if you in Europe, it all rely on the same postures from Facebook.00;15;30;16 – 00;15;57;25
Speaker 2
But if you ended up I think probably the like first, well, it’s a signal that will go from the from your phone to a 4G Internet on the top of the New York building or Euston Building or wherever you are. And this signal will be transformed into positions of light and the information goes into positions of light, into fiber optics from the 4G antenna down to the building.00;15;57;28 – 00;16;29;15
Speaker 2
And it goes down the sidewalk of New York City. And that position of light your like is actually being transported, transmitted into a fiber optic cable down the sidewalk down, and it goes into the center and it may go to Oregon, western coast of the United States. PRINEVILLE Facebook has one of its most important data center operations. That’s one of the data centers.00;16;29;17 – 00;16;49;01
Speaker 2
There are many others, and it will be stored there. And it would be replicated at exactly before, because if this data center is not a forward to, you need to have a reputation spend at the center in order to run operations. 24 seven. But it will be scattered on the American territory, maybe scattered outside of the United States.00;16;49;06 – 00;17;16;09
Speaker 2
These are I’m not really sure about when you are your consumer of Internet of Facebook services. I mean, WhatsApp, Instagram, Facebook, you’re like being stored in the northern part of Europe, close to the Arctic Circle in Sweden. This is where this is. And I might explain you white Tesla over there. But anyway, it begins data center and the person will use anything you like.00;17;16;11 – 00;17;41;25
Speaker 2
Will connect this into the center and get the like on her or Isabelle and this person. Actually it may be sitting two meters away from you. Maybe in the the neighbors of your office is two meters away and you like its profile and you just say to him, I’m just like your profile. Check it out. What you don’t know is that the real distance between you and this person is not the physical distance from these two meters.00;17;41;28 – 00;18;12;29
Speaker 2
It’s actually thousands of kilometers, which is trouble of that data that maybe an email, maybe a picture that maybe a video that maybe the Google search attempted to search all these rules, all this through this spider we call the Web, which is made of concrete, lots of resources, which is a tricity. And so I said to my editor, Hey, what if we do this edition of that?00;18;13;01 – 00;18;39;13
Speaker 2
What if we investigate the predictions of the so-called materialized world because there is no such thing as too materialistic because we’re talking about all these cables, fiber optics, which you to print all this data. And what if we follow the trend of like as a journalist, I know the trend of resources have been doing this for 15 years.00;18;39;16 – 00;19;01;09
Speaker 2
Yeah. Pulling the tomatoes to your the oil cool true of migrants across Africa. I’ve done this have been putting the train of atoms. What if I flew the train by an entry? I realized that it could hold the train of about it. For two years it traveled the world around the world, including the United States, where we. The train of my life.00;19;01;12 – 00;19;02;08
Speaker 2
Yeah.00;19;02;11 – 00;19;47;11
Speaker 1
And so when we’re talking about bytes, we’re talking about energy, right? We’re talking about light and we’re talking about, you know, passing information. But then you’re you’re also talking about this material, you know, atoms essentially that that comprise the infrastructure. And one of the things that you brought up in the book, which I thought was really interesting, which I hadn’t heard of before, was this idea, this MIPS or MIPS rating, and that it tells you this starting natural resources it takes to create something.00;19;47;14 – 00;20;15;06
Speaker 1
So maybe you could talk a little bit about that and I don’t know what parts of the infrastructure are most relevant there, but I think probably for people listening, it’s their phone in their pocket. So like, you know, how many material resources, natural resources, right. Does that take to say, make just your phone? Just that end point of this this massive infrastructure that you’re talking about?00;20;15;08 – 00;20;45;27
Speaker 2
Well, what we need to understand is that the first ecological impact of the digital world are these actually the fools and the tablets in the streets, 34 billion electric devices being used on Earth as I speak to you now. And all these wonderful objects are very complex objects they have gained in complexity over the last year. Because what you do with the food today has to do is what you use to do with the food.00;20;45;27 – 00;21;14;18
Speaker 2
Ten years, 20 years before rain, always a phone. You do much more many things than just calling someone. You meet the woman or the man of your life on the phone and you order a pizza, you order a text, you you localize yourself, you make videos and pictures, you make films. So basically you need to concentrate objects which maybe used to be a dolphin into a single device, which which needs to be very, very powerful.00;21;14;20 – 00;21;44;17
Speaker 2
The power of the microprocessor was in your phone. Right now, the processing power is the same that the processing power is, which used to be actually used by well, during the seventies in order to send men on Earth. And each and every one of us has the processing power, which used to be used by Nasdaq, who 50 years ago, and it’s every one of us, and this power was in our pockets.00;21;44;19 – 00;22;12;10
Speaker 2
So the phone to be to be manufactured is made of many metals. We chemical and physical properties which are exceptional. And to extract and process these resources, you need to get them in a very diluted state from the earths and the MIPS and the material input for service sheet is basically is a rescue between the final weight of your process.00;22;12;12 – 00;22;35;09
Speaker 2
This phone, which is about once you see grams and all the resources that moved through all the life of the phone in order to make that happen. So you need to move much more rocks in from the ground and the final little gram of earth that you’re going to get from this rock and which you’re going to change your phone.00;22;35;12 – 00;23;05;15
Speaker 2
And then you need to, you know, you know, keep in mind also, they do not have water, which has been necessary, for example, for processing as a rock and to turn this broke into the minerals, which need also to count the oil to terrorism that has been used in order to bring together all the components of the form from different parts of the world to the manufactory where they have been assembled symbols in order to make its own happen.00;23;05;17 – 00;23;39;17
Speaker 2
So you calculate all this resources are directly and indirectly are being used to make your phone happen. And what we discover is that the amount of resources for making your phone phone come to an existence is 182 times more than the weight of the product. So no, sorry, 1200 times more. That’s 150 grand for phone is actually one and 82 kilograms for what’s 5 minutes?00;23;39;21 – 00;23;46;06
Speaker 2
Wow. You need a one. You need two kilograms of resource, you know, to produce a phone, which is very light.00;23;46;08 – 00;24;02;10
Speaker 1
And that’s in pounds. What is that? It’s about £3.3 per kilogram or something like that. So that would be like 400 and £500 of raw material to into, into my little phone.00;24;02;12 – 00;24;04;22
Speaker 2
I would let you calculate because I’m not sure about that.00;24;04;23 – 00;24;10;05
Speaker 1
I think that, I think yeah, something like that, something like that. I think it’s.00;24;10;07 – 00;24;18;20
Speaker 2
Yeah, I’m speaking with my one metric. I didn’t prepare that before, but that’s okay.00;24;18;21 – 00;24;22;14
Speaker 1
That’s okay. We don’t, we don’t have to get into that which, which systems better.00;24;22;14 – 00;24;44;16
Speaker 2
But, but keep in mind that objects around is far bigger than what we think. Yeah, that’s just yeah, my phone is a tip of the iceberg and as you know, what’s been is a see part of the iceberg which is in the deceased far greater than just the tip of the iceberg. As to look at your phone this way is a tip of the iceberg.00;24;44;18 – 00;25;08;11
Speaker 2
You do see what’s beneath. You’ll see what’s behind. You don’t see this ratio behind because basically the mind is not in your country. It’s somewhere in Asia, usually in poor places where nobody wants to go. And this is what we need to take into consideration the impact on the earth of your future world is far greater than what you may mention when you hold your phones with your with in your hands.00;25;08;13 – 00;25;24;03
Speaker 2
That tells you to what extent there is no such thing as a materialized world. Once again, the world virtualization, putting your paycheck in the cloud, all these words which conveys the idea of nonexistence.00;25;24;10 – 00;25;24;20
Speaker 1
Right.00;25;24;24 – 00;25;38;19
Speaker 2
Physically is very dangerous because it keeps you away from all the pollution associated with the with the resources or for having enjoying your life on Facebook.00;25;38;21 – 00;26;08;17
Speaker 1
And and and do you think that’s the these big tech companies which you called FAANG? I think it’s Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google, Apple. I mean do they is that something that they’re trying to obscure intentionally? Do they want to, you know, obscure from the end user that all this stuff is happening? Is it in their interest to do that.00;26;08;20 – 00;26;41;29
Speaker 2
In in a way, yes. And that’s what I realize I discovered while writing this book, because I was in Sweden, in Lapland, as I mentioned before, where Facebook has built a center for European, African and Middle East consumers like 800 million people are stored within two days for the two centers in the city of Lulea, just down the Arctic Circle in Dawson, Sweden.00;26;42;01 – 00;27;06;02
Speaker 2
And that center, I’ve seen it. I’ve not been into it. I couldn’t get into it. But we just walk around it and the data center through blurry and whatever. You want to talk about this data center in Lapland, in rural, in the city of London, everyone’s bored about it. And they realize that actually Facebook was making everything possible to be very discreet, to make itself invisible.00;27;06;02 – 00;27;40;20
Speaker 2
Lies like, you know, no one really care talking about. They’ve just come to be boring. And I realized that there were other actually, Facebook in Sweden is being legally branded as Finagled Sweden the legal name for Facebook. In Sweden. All this infrastructures of Facebook of matter is finally Sweden. It’s not Facebook itself. And I realized also that Amazon Industries, not the same Amazon Web Services does the same with some of its data centers on the eastern coast of the United States.00;27;40;20 – 00;28;13;09
Speaker 2
Yeah, the data centers are being legally registered by the name vanilla industry. Yes. We also realize that it is a very interesting stuff that there was datacentre being built by Apple. I think that was in Texas. You may check it out. And that was Southern Butter domestic there was a couple of years ago. And datacenter, wouldn’t it appear when it was under construction on Google Maps and it will on your Google Maps whenever the building was finished and whenever is it?00;28;13;09 – 00;28;45;26
Speaker 2
It is that there was really four operations which would probably, you know, visualize is the real impact, physically speaking, of this infrastructure. So there is a paradox very because we see Facebook logo everywhere on the streets, but we don’t see these anywhere in the physical world, Right? That is a study by a researcher, a Swedish researcher studying the Lulea bookcase very well, explaining the strategy of becoming visible light.00;28;45;28 – 00;29;07;04
Speaker 2
Because if we don’t see you in the physical world, how do you want to be criticized if you’re untouchable in the real sense of the word? If we cannot touch Facebook in the real world because we can see the entire how do you want to make Facebook? Pretty sizable in the real world. If you’re intentional in the future world, you’re untouchable.00;29;07;06 – 00;29;35;09
Speaker 2
In the debate. That’s the way to keep away any debate regarding, for example, the impact of Facebook on the environment. Right. So this was a very interesting and the investigation by a researcher was caught in the dark mode explaining that their strategy in a way I wouldn’t globalize that in this analysis, but I would give examples of ways to make you say to these creates in the physical world that actually you can’t be criticized anymore.00;29;35;14 – 00;29;36;10
Speaker 2
00;29;36;12 – 00;29;47;27
Speaker 1
I see. Okay. Well, one thought is that someone at Amazon has a sense of humor because vandalize it. Do you know where that reference comes from? Vanilla Industries.00;29;47;29 – 00;29;51;20
Speaker 2
I know, but this is what the future says.00;29;51;22 – 00;30;06;14
Speaker 1
This is a made up company that saw the character George on this show Seinfeld was pretending to work for so that is really funny that that has that they’re actually using that and.00;30;06;16 – 00;30;08;04
Speaker 2
That tells about their intent.00;30;08;06 – 00;30;29;10
Speaker 1
Yes. Yes, yes. This is not supposed to be a real company. This is this is a front for for Amazon. Do you enjoy books about science and nature as much as I do? They bring a lot of information together and help you learn about science and the natural world on a much deeper level than you just get from consuming news.00;30;29;17 – 00;30;49;06
Speaker 1
Well, we’ve curated a great list of books over at our website. On a page we call the Reading Room. It also features the books of all the authors that we’ve had on this podcast. Any purchases made through the reading Room help support our channel with no added cost to you. Check it out at science centric dot com or look for a link in the description below.00;30;49;09 – 00;31;15;02
Speaker 1
I guess it does seem a little bit. The word I would use is nefarious because those companies control a lot of online information, a lot of online debate. And if there’s no physical location, then how do you not like you can go picket in front of I mean, I guess you can go to Amazon headquarters, but we don’t even I mean, we don’t even know where the data centers are.00;31;15;02 – 00;31;21;28
Speaker 1
We don’t know much about how the company actually functions or. Yeah, it’s interesting.00;31;22;01 – 00;31;57;05
Speaker 2
How do you want to go on strike in a warehouse which doesn’t exist right? I mean, the permission centuries ago of this of of how do you see the labor unions as being made possible because they were place together into one trunk, you would be able to prevent the access of the working force to the warehouse to stop the workforce from working that day.00;31;57;07 – 00;32;17;20
Speaker 2
But because there was physical locations on which you could operate by being on strike. But if there is no physical location anymore in the future world, how do you want to how do you want to access that? How do you want to have an impact, physically speaking on them? By having any action? I would say violent action.00;32;17;25 – 00;32;19;14
Speaker 1
Right? Right. Yeah.00;32;19;16 – 00;32;43;25
Speaker 2
And this is a point and I’ve also studied that and have discovered that this, you know, is this has been solved by US thinkers. US university researchers think that because you can’t go on strike in the future, we can complain about something, the physical world. I mean, then it means that the struggle has to move from the physical world to the future world.00;32;43;27 – 00;33;08;01
Speaker 2
And how would you struggle in the future world where you for example, you you become an actor, you become someone trying to block the access to websites. And that’s the way actually to express your complaints active on on a company. But I think in this thing in the future world and not enough is in the physical world again.00;33;08;04 – 00;33;30;06
Speaker 2
So in a way that disappearance at least that this lack of visibility of the infra means that if you will criticize it, if you want to complain about your struggle against any kind of physical impacts involved, the impact they have, this has to be response to working on a book, right to get into the way to do it.00;33;30;11 – 00;34;06;27
Speaker 2
Yeah, but acting mutual world, laying the same rules as you play is also the way to do it is always if you want to complain about the cloud where you need to go to Lapland or Desert Utah, where many of the distances but it’s hard to do. Yeah, what Greenpeace has been doing I was about ten years ago in that they flew some huge balloons over the headquarters of Facebook companies and it was like you two huge lights of balloons on this.00;34;06;29 – 00;34;31;16
Speaker 2
And that was written. How clean is your cloud? And there would be many pictures and videos. It was being taken out of this action by Greenpeace and there was a way to actually complain and act on this specific topic. But not everyone has you know, this is a positive action of such an NGO like my Greenpeace.00;34;31;23 – 00;35;08;25
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. They circumvented the the system there. So I mean, certainly the, the Internet and you know, all the technology supporting it. I mean it’s this huge, it’s this amazing tool that we have to reach people all over the globe. I mean, it’s kind of it’s kind of staggering. And I think at least in a couple of points in the book, you referred to us as being gods because we sort of almost have this godlike power to, like, reach out and, you know, communicate with anyone across the globe.00;35;08;28 – 00;35;44;09
Speaker 1
But when we’re talking about, like the environmental impacts that these technologies have, there is this like paradox that if you’re trying to say something about it and you’re trying to critique it, let’s say you’re also using that technology spreads your message. It’s and this comes up a lot when you’re, you know, people with environmental actors, activists and other types of activists and they show up at the protest or rally and they’ve all got iPhones, you know, like so you wrote something they thought it was really just nailed it.00;35;44;09 – 00;36;08;27
Speaker 1
You said you wrote You don’t realize that by making digital the instrument of your emancipation, you are running your brushing into the arms of your new master. So how do you resolve this paradox? I guess that that we have these amazing tools of communication, but by using them, we’re also kind of playing into that game.00;36;09;00 – 00;36;14;12
Speaker 2
When I wrote that it was specifically targeting the Greatest generation, the youth.00;36;14;14 – 00;36;17;22
Speaker 1
Greta Thunberg the the Climate Activist Yeah.00;36;17;23 – 00;36;49;24
Speaker 2
Greta Thunberg I like Greta Thunberg, by the way, but I just wanted to raise a contradiction here. The new generation very much aware of plastic pollution that’s eating too much meat. Expect the climate, the wear that taking planes is bad for the climate. But at the same time spearheading the new ways of using these technologies to such an extent where it may become just incompatible with the fight against climate change.00;36;49;26 – 00;37;15;23
Speaker 2
And I’ve been making a making a parallel between the 1968 generation. Our parents, Greta, the tree is a socialist dream, but we ended up working in oil companies at very high level so that the discrepancy between the dreams of you young and what you’ve made of these dreams whenever you became order. And I’m asking the same question to the Greta Thunberg generation.00;37;15;26 – 00;37;39;01
Speaker 2
You were you were spearheading climate movements. That’s wonderful. But you also opening a new chapter of human impacts on the earth and you’re spearheading it. And if you are going to motion to the direction you put it, actually exactly your struggle at your party. Now, what I’m seeing and I want to be very precise, Eric, I’m living with my time.00;37;39;03 – 00;38;00;21
Speaker 2
I need Internet to speak with you. Yeah, I need to criticize him too. It’s such a paradox. I have this very willingness to think that if I had to speak with you by coming to the United States and taking a plane within speaking mine, my CO2 impact would be much worse. And in that way, Internet is a good thing for the environment.00;38;00;21 – 00;38;26;28
Speaker 2
I mean, it it may prevent actions in the real world to take you to happen, and it might be good for or for mitigating my CO2 impact. I also understand that we need Internet for making good actions and going on strike on Friday when you were of the generation of Greta Thunberg before protesting against inaction, brutal inaction by which energy the good thing.00;38;27;00 – 00;38;49;29
Speaker 2
So it brings a question, which is how do you use Internet? And this question is not being asked. You know, no, we have the next iPhone coming and new. We have it coming and we have this new technology. And we are so fascinated by these technologies. And the question is just what new technology would I use? What new software, which new hardware?00;38;50;02 – 00;39;20;08
Speaker 2
But the question is for what fricking purpose? And these questions are being asked and the question is the cost to be a cost benefit analysis between what it costs, including for the environment, but also for your mental health or for democracy in the United States to use to its social media in which it would benefit to get out of this question isn’t being asked because what people in the industry want me to be is a consumer, right is not a citizen.00;39;20;10 – 00;39;43;05
Speaker 2
And as long as I remain a consumer with devices, I will just look for my immediate benefit. If I’m being asked to act as a as a citizen, I will make the question more complicated. I will bring in the debate more angles, and we think of Internet in social way, in a positive way, in an economic and mental health way.00;39;43;07 – 00;40;10;10
Speaker 2
But once again, we need to act as citizens. And we’re not doing this. We are not doing this benefit analysis. And in my view, there are two reasons for this. First, because we believe that impact on the planet zero. But so why should I find myself watching the next videos of cats as it has no impact? It has an impact, but because it believes that it does it, why should I look for it myself?00;40;10;12 – 00;40;31;09
Speaker 2
And the second thing is we believe it’s a free, free for all, for literally free. I don’t have to be anything for it. And this is all in someone that is you know, it’s because you’re the product, not free. That’s right. It’s free. You are giving you a title. You can use your pieces of your cell piece of you.00;40;31;11 – 00;41;06;24
Speaker 2
You are in exchange for a service on the web which is given given for free in exchange for the debt actually, they’re making money out of them. And because you’re not impactful at all, because it’s free, because it is a business of Google today. And is Facebook to just name a few? Well, basically, we just keep using more and more and more like an open bar you pay for entering and then you can do whatever you want for the rest of like, believe me, you end up just giving cookie truth.00;41;06;27 – 00;41;15;06
Speaker 2
And this is a word truth services, because we don’t understand it’s not free and it’s not impact free on the page.00;41;15;08 – 00;41;35;08
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And I think I think if you are using something like that where it’s a free service and you can’t figure out how are they making money off of this, it’s because they’re making money off of you. You are like you said, you’re the product. That’s how they’re making money. They’re not making money because you’re not paying for it.00;41;35;08 – 00;41;42;14
Speaker 1
Somebody is paying for it. Somebody’s got to pay those engineer salaries to create this. Whatever that thing is.00;41;42;16 – 00;41;44;21
Speaker 2
But I think.00;41;44;23 – 00;42;09;08
Speaker 1
I was just going to say I think what I think a lot of people are aware of that now, you know, are people of a certain age. We’ve sort of been the guinea pigs for the last ten or 15 years of especially if social media, you know, on and and I think people I think people younger too are becoming more aware of this as you know as they come into it that that nothing’s private that they don’t have their privacy.00;42;09;13 – 00;42;23;20
Speaker 1
But I think what your book does so well is it just it elucidates all the other material costs of of using those technologies that I don’t think people are aware of. And as I was.00;42;23;20 – 00;42;24;13
Speaker 2
In the subject.00;42;24;16 – 00;42;50;01
Speaker 1
Sorry, just so me I was just going to add one more thing. It’s just as I was preparing to talk to you because if you looked around me, you’d see I was surrounded by technology right now, you know, lights, cameras, you know, computers. But I just was aware of it. I became more aware of it. And I was thinking about all the ways that I was connecting with the cloud, You know, all the good.00;42;50;01 – 00;43;04;02
Speaker 1
I love Google. I love I mean, that’s I run so much of my life with Google and I was like, wow, I’m thinking now about where this information is going, how it’s being stored. So I think this I think your book is fantastic in that regard.00;43;04;04 – 00;43;10;27
Speaker 2
Thank you very much. You appreciate it. That’s an angle that we haven’t thought about until now. That’s kind of a new angle.00;43;10;29 – 00;43;11;13
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;43;11;13 – 00;43;28;10
Speaker 2
And this one was so fascinated by this story, by this investigation to people around the world to talk about something which I wasn’t aware myself and I knew no one would be aware of. And I think what we can bring with the book is something new to the public, which was unsaid.00;43;28;16 – 00;43;58;25
Speaker 1
Maybe a place to wrap up our conversation is in 2023, going into 2024, as as a human on planet Earth, as a citizen, like what can we do individually to minimize our digital impact and extend that to companies as well? Because I think there are a lot of people in companies that are well-meaning that see, see these new technologies and go, wow, this is fantastic.00;43;58;25 – 00;44;12;25
Speaker 1
And they don’t even think about these these environmental or material costs, social costs of using these technologies. Like what? What can they do? Like that actually makes a difference. That’s not greenwashing.00;44;12;28 – 00;44;43;28
Speaker 2
So the good news, Eric, is that there are many things we can do individually, as you said, that companies can do. The first thing you need to do individually and the first thing companies need to do is to make people that make yourself keep phones and tablets and computers longer. Usually on average, we keep our phone for like two years and then we change where we should keep it for four years, five years, six years, and companies should push their employees to do the same.00;44;44;00 – 00;45;06;14
Speaker 2
And if they don’t want their employees to keep their phones for ten years for cybersecurity issues, for example, at least make sure that the phone, which is still a working phone, can be sold to a second hand platform company or even to an NGO, which will give it to people who are leading it. But there will be a second life to all your ASHA devices leaving your company.00;45;06;17 – 00;45;52;29
Speaker 2
My phone is an iPhone seven. I bought it three years ago. It was already second hand. I repaired it ten times. Wow. Screen battery button is still working and maybe I can keep it for two more years. So doing this helps mitigating the cost of Internet of the digital world environment in an incredible way. So the first thing to do, I think also what you can do in individual speaking is that maybe straight just to say so, but what if you can use a Y rather than 4G or IP use one time when you watch a video one way by the electricity that you will consume will be much less, maybe ten times.00;45;52;29 – 00;46;17;04
Speaker 2
This figure is deeper than if you use 4G device. This is the difference between my own 4G. It’s huge. So whenever your home just spits your spend out mode on Y, fine, that makes a difference. You can watch a video on your phone with a high definition because with a loaded condition or high definition on the smartphone, that doesn’t change anything.00;46;17;06 – 00;46;38;29
Speaker 2
But still, I mean, for your eyes that is introducing the in terms of electricity consumption for high definition picture, it’s much more than full load efficient picture. So if you can put your phone the videos on YouTube on the standard mode, which is only finished when you’re on your phone, actually it makes a world of difference. I would say if you don’t like to use church, you don’t use church.00;46;39;00 – 00;47;08;00
Speaker 2
If you use Google, I don’t have the specific figures, but to search on Google, that’s less than, you know, digging all the web to find an analysis of an answer on church. Also, for a company that may be more or less advice, you want to have your data from your company in the cloud. Every company know it’s so easy to run your data there in the cloud that’s much more safe.00;47;08;03 – 00;47;34;21
Speaker 2
So the question is, where is the cloud literally speaking? Is it close to your office far because? The data will have to travel more. It will come at a cost for the environment because there is an energetic cost of forcing the data to your office. To the other end of the world now is very poor. Depending also where the country is, your cloud will run on coal, oil or nuclear or wind farms.00;47;34;23 – 00;47;58;24
Speaker 2
So it is worth asking if you can to the cloud provider what is its electricity mix and where physically speaking the cloud is? Because actually if it’s China or even at states or in Europe, electricity mix different. So when you company you can you can have an impact here by choosing the provider of a cloud was ecotricity because as green as possible.00;47;58;27 – 00;48;08;00
Speaker 2
These are a few examples of what you can do as an individual, what you can do as a company to make things change and there is no factory.00;48;08;02 – 00;48;33;19
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
These are innovative, world changing organizations. We’re leading humanity toward a brighter future. Learn more flow, spark AECOM, or look for the link in the description below. One thing that you know, these companies that are hosting these data centers, these server farms or data centers, whatever you want to call them, I mean, they often say that they are trying to become more efficient.00;49;02;00 – 00;49;35;06
Speaker 1
They’re switching to green energy, so on and so forth. One of the things this is another paradox that I’ve run across, and there was a great book I read, and I don’t know if you’ve read it, but it’s called Force of Nature. The unlikely story of Walmart’s Green Revolution was all about how Wal-Mart, which, you know, at the time was the Amazon of the early 2000s, was finding ways to reduce their ecological footprint, coming up with less packaging, this sort of stuff.00;49;35;06 – 00;50;05;12
Speaker 1
But there’s a big caveat there. When they switched to greener methods, greener technologies, they save money because they’re using less to do more. And then when they save less, when they save money, they they put it back into expansion, to growth. And so the net effect is that the net effect is zero because they’ve just become more efficient, essentially.00;50;05;12 – 00;50;24;14
Speaker 1
So I guess I don’t know what my question is there, but is there a way, I guess, to push back against that with with companies and not just not necessarily with tech companies, but but I feel like other companies do that sort of thing, too.00;50;24;17 – 00;50;59;10
Speaker 2
Well, Eric, you’re raising a very interesting point. And this is exactly the same thing happening in the digital world, exactly the same Wal-Mart thing, and we call it in the digital world. We call it the rebound effect. And basically companies are rushing to use more credit tricity so that whatever you do, you will have a necessary the environment on on the climate change and they’re rushing to get to the being more efficient in their data storage processes.00;50;59;13 – 00;51;32;29
Speaker 2
There are some issues which are very well known by the industry, which is the B, U, E for energy efficiency. So basically, basically on the spur you use for one bite of that being stored and the more research, the more innovation technological development is going on, more actually the mitigation is obvious and the more it is efficient. The thing is, the same time as you, we use more and more of these devices.00;51;33;02 – 00;51;43;23
Speaker 2
And, you know, I just would like to compare with you. You prove my age of 43. I have had my four my first phone in the year 2000.00;51;44;01 – 00;51;45;02
Speaker 1
Okay.00;51;45;05 – 00;52;18;08
Speaker 2
And at the time I had the rates paying for 11c to send 40 text messages a month. Text messages do I send every hour today? 40? This is a rebound effect. So on one hand, you gain something exactly like Wal-Mart and on the other hand, we are just, you know, spending so many say nothing on here. I’m just coming to that.00;52;18;10 – 00;52;50;13
Speaker 2
On the one hand, Google is really, you know, making its operations search and Google is costing less to the earth. On the other end, we’re all rushing to catch it, which much more important impact. So what you get to one hand, you lose it on the other end. This is what we call the rebound effect. So this is a race between the power of technology to make things better and the our capacity to use wisdom to make a better use of these technologies.00;52;50;16 – 00;53;29;25
Speaker 2
This is a forward of my of the Dark Cloud by Stephen Hawking, not the forward just pulled by Stephen Hawking, which I wanted to use. But basically we are in a race here and we already know who’s winning, who’s winning that race. And this is the worries, the new ways we use Internet, because in the future we’re going to produce so much data for running generative eyes, connected farms, smart buildings, cryptocurrencies, nonfungible, token, whatever, that we will go way beyond the capacity of the technologies to actually mitigate the impact.00;53;29;28 – 00;54;04;12
Speaker 2
Yeah, at least unless there is like a amazing technology changing the rules of the game a game changer, we are at a pace that we’re actually technology will not go fast enough in order to mitigate the new ways we have to use these technologies. So this is exactly the same Walmart and we can’t understand the digital impact, the impact of the digital world, the Earth if you don’t take into consideration all this new technologies which new cost and once again, everyone’s running after these new ways of using.00;54;04;14 – 00;54;28;16
Speaker 1
Suggests well I’m I’m a little bit older than you I’m 47 so I do remember when we had to pay per text message. We had to you know, we had to pay for you only got a certain number and then you had to pay more. So and those were like, What kilobytes of data? I mean, text messages are like terabytes or something.00;54;28;16 – 00;55;08;26
Speaker 1
I mean, they’re tiny. So let me let me ask you one more question. Is, you know, just speculatively, like let’s say, if nothing changes, let’s say if, you know, you’re talking about some game changing technology, like quantum computing, for example, that would dramatically increase the efficiency of computing in general. And let’s say 25 years from now, if we continue on this path, if we don’t change what we’re doing, what do you think the world would look like in terms of how much energy consumption is happening from our digital infrastructure?00;55;08;29 – 00;55;45;04
Speaker 2
These figures are being produced each day by research institutes wherever around the world. So they are. Yeah, figures are being assumed, you know, as of 2000, 30 or 2050 depends on many scenarios. But we are in the business as usual scenario. I mentioned a figure before which was 8% CO2 emission figure, just the digital world in terms of electricity, we might double that amount of electricity.00;55;45;06 – 00;56;20;12
Speaker 2
It might not be 10% of the world consumption of electricity for the digital world, but 30%, 20% sorry. And that may by 2065, 2047 to activity that may make the digital world just inconsistent with the fight against climate change. Yeah, just the system. And this is also what I want to what I want to stress here. We we need to care about that otherwise would be in big trouble.00;56;20;15 – 00;56;49;07
Speaker 2
And this and this impacts the whole in terms of energy consumption, CO2 emissions. It is a material impact of the future world. It is a mining processing. It is all the impacts on the environment, such as pollution waters is artificial ization of identification of oceans, biodiversity loss, planetary boundaries, which are then turning to the mining industry for making phones and tablets and computers.00;56;49;08 – 00;57;17;27
Speaker 2
Yeah, and this is not necessarily about CO2 because we tend to think only in terms of CO2 emissions. Actually, our ecological actions may have positive impacts way beyond CO2 emissions or or mitigation of emissions. If all this examples that have given, which we also need to take into consideration. So I’m a bit worried because I don’t think there is wisdom here.00;57;17;27 – 00;57;52;23
Speaker 2
Eric I think and I would like to be Biden or my own president, Michael, because on the one hand what I’m telling you is just obvious. It’s just figures produced by researchers from the university and and research bodies in the world. On the other hand if we on if if the United States euros European countries summit was in that race for 5G for deep learning, for generative AIDS, what’s happening is that China will lead to race.00;57;52;25 – 00;58;21;01
Speaker 2
Russia may lead the race and in a way still being in a race means keeping my ignorance, my industrial sovereignty, my geopolitical sovereignty, my technical know technological sovereignty, my cultural sovereignty. I don’t want to views of China, but if I don’t want to be as pretty as China, I’m going to have my own 5G antennas and my own thoughts in my own website.00;58;21;01 – 00;58;49;15
Speaker 2
This is in my own church. If it’s made by the Europeans and you see here and I can’t replied, I can find the, you know, how to bring these contradictions together on the one hand and need to protect the environment and to make the internet world with the fight against climate change in the Paris segment. On the other hand, we are moving into a much tough world with much more challenge pretensions.00;58;49;17 – 00;59;05;16
Speaker 2
Where’s the mastering of Internet, of which technologies will be key for leading the 21st century? How do you bring these two objectives to go together? That is a very heart. We should tell. And I don’t know the answer. It’s, you know.00;59;05;19 – 00;59;31;22
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I feel that way too. I feel like where we’re trying to apply old models of thinking to new problems that sort of transcend what our, you know, our ways of thinking, even in terms of politics, because are we you know, we have conservative and liberal, you know, in the United States, like does that really fit with the way the world is today and all the factual problems we have?00;59;31;22 – 00;59;38;22
Speaker 1
And I feel like it doesn’t feel like we have to we have to come up with new ways of thinking about things.00;59;38;25 – 01;00;07;27
Speaker 2
And that’s what people do and that’s why I speak about them single parts of the book. But also in the in the conclusion saying, we see societies, small societies or thinkers or of makers organizing into communities where they think of a different way of using that means or through different ways of organizing themselves, creating new social links with each other, but also around a new way of using these technologies.01;00;07;27 – 01;00;42;18
Speaker 2
But usually it’s about more suburbs and know only a tiny percentage of the group population where you So even myself, I’m not sure would be ready to be in such a way my, my, my relation to these technologies. So I try to open the different cultures to show the different cultures which have been possible, which are being felt, which are being already put into practice by certain groups of people where there is a most enthusiastic or the most, you know, radical thinkers, including in the United States.01;00;42;21 – 01;00;57;16
Speaker 2
I don’t there’s nothing judgmental here, but just to tell you that all these societies do exist today and the future is already being written in these societies which have been trying to meet the wrong. My my research is my investigation.01;00;57;23 – 01;01;18;19
Speaker 1
Yeah, very cool. Very interesting. And we could probably talk about that aspect of it for a couple of hours because it’s such that’s I mean, that’s one thing I love about your work is it it touches on so many different things going on, let’s say. And I was actually a little worried when we first started talking is like, where do I start?01;01;18;19 – 01;01;47;11
Speaker 1
Because this is, you know, it touches everything. So again, it’s been a pleasure talking to you again and hearing such a fascinating read. And we didn’t really touch very much on on some the more the sort of travel aspect of this in some of the crazy places that you went. So if people want to learn more and kind of go with you on this journey, they should definitely check out your book.01;01;47;13 – 01;02;01;16
Speaker 1
And speaking of which, where can they find the book? And what where else could they find you if they want to interact with you online in the cloud, if they want to interact with you in the cloud?01;02;01;19 – 01;02;43;07
Speaker 2
Well, you find me in the cloud, you find me on my Hotmail account. I have a website. A few people that come. My email is public. You find me on social networks, please do connect. And so that’s via the cloud, the kind of books in the cloud on Amazon Dot. You find me on the books. So you see, I’ve been awake and recorded and physically speaking, by the way, I may be traveling to the United States in February, the beginning of March, speaking in Miami, New York City to San Francisco and a February beginning of March promoting the dark cloud to the American public.01;02;43;07 – 01;02;48;11
Speaker 2
Awesome. And that will be on my website. Every date, every tour. It will be on the website.01;02;48;18 – 01;03;03;08
Speaker 1
All right, cool. So if people want to reach out, reach out, but do so mindfully, like don’t don’t send don’t set G on like a ton of messages. You know, think about be mindful of your messages.01;03;03;10 – 01;03;07;10
Speaker 2
Mindful of send a message would be to invite me for a conference in the United States at these.01;03;07;10 – 01;03;08;27
Speaker 1
Dates. There you go.01;03;08;29 – 01;03;16;26
Speaker 2
A free agenda. So please let me know if you want me to be somewhere, because we could discuss that. That’s the main free way of sending emails.01;03;16;28 – 01;03;18;15
Speaker 1
Awesome. All right. Thanks again.01;03;18;16 – 01;03;21;03
Speaker 2
Thank you very much, Rick.01;03;21;05 – 01;03;43;28
Speaker 1
Well, that’s it for this show. And I hope you learned as much as I did. If you’d like to reduce your online, you should consider joining Digital Cleanup day. Coming up this March 16th, a link to the event pages in the description before we sign off just quick reminder to read this podcast and leave us a review on which ever podcast platform you’re listening on your reviews and comments.01;03;43;28 – 01;03;57;20
Speaker 1
Help us get noticed. Science is a flow spark media production. Our producer for this episode was Alexander James. Gas booking was handled by Melissa David. Until next Time. I’m Eric Olson.