Mark Williams is a professor of cognitive neuroscience with over 25 years of experience conducting behavioral and brain imaging research. He regularly runs programs on the neuroscience of learning, the neuroscience of emotions, how our brains create our reality, and the impact of modern technologies on our brains. His latest book “The Connected Species: How the Evolution of the Human Brain Can Save the World” explores how humanity’s ability to connect and cooperate has made us a successful species, but is also responsible for many of society’s chronic problems.
LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE
EPISODE LINKS
Mark’s book: “The Connected Species: How the Evolution of the Human Brain Can Save the World”: https://sciencentric.com/product/mark-williams-connected-species/
Explore Mark’s website: https://www.drmarkwilliams.com/
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Brought to you by Flow Spark Media.00;00;02;07 – 00;00;07;12
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Once you create a group, you actually then create AB groups and we need to stop doing that, that.00;00;07;12 – 00;00;08;25
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Group part of it and.00;00;08;25 – 00;00;12;06
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Just create bigger and bigger groups so that we can be more connected, so we.00;00;12;06 – 00;00;15;11
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Can do more amazing things because we are capable.00;00;15;11 – 00;00;22;29
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Of incredible things.00;00;23;01 – 00;00;50;20
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Welcome to another episode of the Science Centric Podcast. If you’re new to this show, this is where we have thought provoking conversations at the crossroads of science, society, and the natural world. And who am I? I am your host, Eric Olson, filmmaker, journalist, and all around curious, creative with a passion for science and nature. So if there’s one thing you can’t deny about the era we live in, it’s that we’re more connected than we’ve ever been before.00;00;50;25 – 00;01;17;16
Speaker 1
This podcast is a great example. I can reach out to just about anyone, anywhere on the planet, record an interesting conversation, and then beam it straight to YouTube or the mobile device in your pocket. Now, this might seem kind of basic to our younger audience, but for someone who grew up in a time before the Internet, it feels like we’re living out the science fiction dreams of the 1980s just with less fringy clothes and haircuts.00;01;17;18 – 00;01;50;28
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Anyways, being more connected than ever before, we seem to feel more and more isolated. Depression and anxiety have been steadily rising, particularly amongst young people who are the most avid consumers of digital technology. And of course, the COVID pandemic accelerated this trend. Normalizing online interactions over face to face meetings. My guest in this episode, cognitive neuroscientist Mark Williams, is on a mission to correct some of the problems caused by this rapid adoption of technology.00;01;51;00 – 00;02;27;14
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After working in academia for nearly 20 years, including a stint at MIT, he now runs programs for both kids and adults to help them understand and better manage their interactions with technology. He also looks at these issues in his latest book, The Connected Species How the Evolution of the Human Brain Can Save the World. The book also talks about how we evolved to be such socially connected creatures in the first place and how our need to connect and form groups is at the root of some other chronic problems society faces, such as racism and sexism.00;02;27;16 – 00;02;51;00
Speaker 1
But before we chat with Marc about his book, just a quick reminder to rate this episode and leave us a review on whichever platform you’re listening on your reviews and comments help this show get noticed. Thanks for helping our podcast to grow and for making the world a little more science centric. So the book’s called The Connected Species, which of course refers to humanity.00;02;51;02 – 00;03;15;25
Speaker 1
I thought maybe we could talk a little bit about what we know about how humans started, where humanity started, and what if we were to take a look at humans objectively as a species, like what would be our natural environment that we would be most at home in?00;03;15;28 – 00;03;22;23
Speaker 3
Yeah, it’s a great question because if you actually look at us as a species, we’re actually not that good.00;03;22;23 – 00;03;38;04
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I mean, we’re not the fastest species that it’s our and we’re not the strongest species that out there and we don’t have the largest brain of any species and we don’t actually adapt very well to different environments. So we’re pretty useless when it comes to just our raw ability.00;03;38;06 – 00;03;40;14
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But the thing that really stands us apart.00;03;40;14 – 00;03;44;00
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From any other animal is, is our ability to connect and.00;03;44;00 – 00;03;58;15
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To connect across groups, not only within groups. So if you look at like honeybees there, they have amazing communities where they all connect within the community. But one hive won’t turn around to another hive and say, We have extra.00;03;58;15 – 00;04;00;23
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Honey this month so you can have some.00;04;00;25 – 00;04;07;04
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And then you show us later on. Whereas we do that right, we we connect all across the world. Everybody’s connected.00;04;07;07 – 00;04;10;17
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I have this iceberg talking about this amazing technology.00;04;10;23 – 00;04;17;20
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That allows us to talk across continents. But all of the stuff that went into actually building the laptops.00;04;17;20 – 00;04;18;00
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That we’re.00;04;18;00 – 00;04;20;22
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Actually working off come from all over the world.00;04;20;22 – 00;04;23;11
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I mean, some of the metals are.00;04;23;13 – 00;04;30;01
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Pulled out of the earth in Africa around and it’s astounding to think about a plus across.00;04;30;01 – 00;04;38;23
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Generations, which again, animals don’t do that, that and actually teach across multiple generations that that parent might teach its siblings how to.00;04;38;23 – 00;04;41;23
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Do certain things. But we don’t.00;04;41;23 – 00;04;46;00
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Have that knowledge being passed on in other species, but we’re doing ours.00;04;46;02 – 00;04;46;24
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And that’s what makes.00;04;46;24 – 00;04;52;20
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Us amazing and that makes us so, so amazing, which is why I called us the connected species, because.00;04;52;20 – 00;05;02;15
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That’s really what has has brought us to the point we are now. And I think it’s really sad that we’re being pulled apart at the moment because.00;05;02;15 – 00;05;03;07
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Of that as well.00;05;03;07 – 00;05;08;22
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Because because we have this real drive to connect to people. Because of that.00;05;08;22 – 00;05;14;20
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Once you create a group, you actually then create outgroups and we need to stop doing that, that group.00;05;14;23 – 00;05;15;11
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Part of it.00;05;15;11 – 00;05;20;08
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And just create bigger and bigger groups so that we can be more connected, so we can do more amazing.00;05;20;10 – 00;05;22;01
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Things because we are capable.00;05;22;01 – 00;05;27;22
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Of incredible things, but we’re also capable of incredibly awful things as well.00;05;27;25 – 00;05;47;05
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I’ve heard that there’s a number that’s there’s a number of people that we can sort of keep track of in our mind. And I forget, I forget the name of it, but it’s famous because companies started implementing this. They said, Well, we’re only going to have 200 people in one building. And that’s then that’s the magic number, 200 people.00;05;47;07 – 00;06;02;16
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Is that sort of our limit in terms of how many people we can feel connected to at any particular time? And does that connect with how we evolved?00;06;02;18 – 00;06;15;01
Speaker 3
Yeah, it’s an interesting idea. I’m not a huge fan of it because we don’t have just wanted group and we can see that idea seems to suggest that we have one group.00;06;15;01 – 00;06;15;23
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That we have.00;06;15;23 – 00;06;16;03
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All.00;06;16;04 – 00;06;20;19
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Connections with and we have, as you say, it’s 100,000. Then there’s a thousand in.00;06;20;19 – 00;06;28;17
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That group and that too. But we have many, many different groups away associated with and within those you can have thousands.00;06;28;17 – 00;06;30;28
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Of people within each of them or hundreds or maybe just.00;06;30;28 – 00;06;38;03
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Ten. And so that that idea doesn’t really gel with me because, yeah, for example, I’m a member.00;06;38;03 – 00;06;41;02
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Of Surf Lifesaving here in Australia.00;06;41;02 – 00;06;44;16
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And so as a member of that, I could run into someone.00;06;44;19 – 00;06;48;25
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In person on the other side of the country who is a member of Surf Lifesaving and.00;06;48;28 – 00;06;49;12
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We’d be.00;06;49;15 – 00;06;54;01
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Well, we allowed talking sign language and and connect to each other really.00;06;54;01 – 00;06;57;03
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Easily. But then I’m also a huge fan of the.00;06;57;03 – 00;06;58;28
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Cats, which is a football team here in.00;06;58;28 – 00;07;01;19
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Australia, and anyone who’s a member of the.00;07;01;19 – 00;07;04;17
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Cats I’m going to associate with them would be happy to be part of their group.00;07;04;17 – 00;07;06;03
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But then I have the work.00;07;06;03 – 00;07;07;07
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Colleagues that I work with.00;07;07;07 – 00;07;14;21
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And then I have book clubs that I’m a member of and site and I’m a surfer. So, you know, there’s always surfing people that I.00;07;14;26 – 00;07;15;19
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Associate with.00;07;15;24 – 00;07;20;23
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And this so many different groups that a part of the idea that we have just this limited number that.00;07;20;23 – 00;07;23;27
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We can actually be in one group doesn’t actually work.00;07;23;27 – 00;07;26;29
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And if you think about the way we evolved, we probably started.00;07;26;29 – 00;07;29;13
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Off in very small band like groups.00;07;29;16 – 00;07;30;04
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And then those.00;07;30;04 – 00;07;34;16
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Groups got larger waves. Several family groups probably moved around together.00;07;34;19 – 00;07;39;11
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But because of genetics, we would have had to have moved one well, either the.00;07;39;11 – 00;07;41;00
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Males or the females off into.00;07;41;00 – 00;07;44;03
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Other groups, which would have joined other groups to.00;07;44;03 – 00;07;45;27
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Get through that process.00;07;45;29 – 00;07;52;24
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And so we have a very fluid group mentality. So I know there’s been lots of writings.00;07;52;24 – 00;07;53;04
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About, you.00;07;53;04 – 00;07;54;02
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Know, the tribe and.00;07;54;02 – 00;08;00;07
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That we have these very strict groups and you can only have a certain number and all the rest of it, but that doesn’t actually make sense from an evolutionary.00;08;00;07 – 00;08;07;16
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Biology because our groups can actually expand and contract very easily and they would need to because we’d need to be.00;08;07;16 – 00;08;11;11
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Associated with different groups. I mean, it needs to be, you know, coming in contact with different groups.00;08;11;11 – 00;08;21;12
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And then and that’s the amazing thing about our species that we’re pleased that we’re able to do that. So, yeah, I don’t like the idea of putting this number on it because because it.00;08;21;12 – 00;08;23;03
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Doesn’t actually work from.00;08;23;06 – 00;08;25;17
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A practical point of view.00;08;25;19 – 00;08;27;02
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And from an evolutionary point of view.00;08;27;02 – 00;08;29;11
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So yeah, I think.00;08;29;11 – 00;08;38;04
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It’s not I mean, there’s lots of these things out there that are really nice to say, you know, we’ve got like a thousand beasts on these three 10,000 steps and we’ll be healthy and all the rest of it.00;08;38;04 – 00;08;39;10
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But it never.00;08;39;10 – 00;08;43;01
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Really comes down to being that simple, unfortunately.00;08;43;03 – 00;08;50;10
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Yeah, I think we just lowered that to 6000, by the way, or are. Yeah, whoever they are.00;08;50;13 – 00;08;54;20
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Whatever that happened.00;08;54;22 – 00;09;21;08
Speaker 1
So I’m remembering and remembering in the book you, you pointed to two really kind of important developments in human evolution. One was tool use and then the and also you, you just mentioned the genetic meeting to move people out of the tribe that were too closely related genetically so that we could get some fresh DNA into the group.00;09;21;11 – 00;09;28;00
Speaker 1
So like how could you unpack that a little bit and how that relates to our evolution?00;09;28;03 – 00;09;37;24
Speaker 3
Yeah, to use is really interesting because if you think about to use to make tools actually takes a lot of time and to make tools, well.00;09;37;24 – 00;09;40;09
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Takes even more time because you’ve got to practice a lot.00;09;40;12 – 00;09;54;04
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And so to actually do that you need to give up other things. And you can imagine a point where people went, Hey, you’re really good at making tools and we don’t want to lose you, so we don’t want you to go hunting with us because you might.00;09;54;04 – 00;09;57;11
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Get killed by a leopard or Jaguar or whatever.00;09;57;13 – 00;10;04;05
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So you stay here and make the tools and get really good at it. And then you give us the tools that we can then go out and.00;10;04;05 – 00;10;06;19
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Go hunting or go digging this up and all the rest of it.00;10;06;25 – 00;10;13;28
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And so that would have been a really important step in our evolution, not the actual tool making, but rather the segregation.00;10;13;28 – 00;10;15;10
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Of tasks, saying.00;10;15;17 – 00;10;19;21
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You do this and then we’ll do this and we’ll give you some of the food why we.00;10;19;21 – 00;10;20;26
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Did it, because, of course you.00;10;20;29 – 00;10;27;22
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Need the food to survive. And that would have segregated that which meant that we then segregated more and more and more.00;10;27;22 – 00;10;30;09
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Which is why we’re now in a point where everybody.00;10;30;09 – 00;10;47;24
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Does different things. But because that also relies on this face around and relies on the fact that if I stay home and learn how to be really good at Toolmaking and don’t become very good at hunting, I’m losing one of my abilities. I’m losing this ability to hunt.00;10;47;24 – 00;10;48;24
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And actually.00;10;48;27 – 00;10;50;06
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To.00;10;50;08 – 00;10;52;01
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Keep myself alive by getting food.00;10;52;08 – 00;10;54;27
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And so I have to rely on you to actually give me food.00;10;54;27 – 00;10;56;27
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When when you get food.00;10;57;00 – 00;10;58;21
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And so that takes a lot of.00;10;58;23 – 00;10;59;22
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Each other right.00;10;59;24 – 00;11;10;18
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And that’s where we are at the moment, right? Is if I turn around and go, okay, I’m going to become an engineer, I have to then rely on the fact that they society is going to.00;11;10;18 – 00;11;11;28
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Pay me a decent wage.00;11;12;06 – 00;11;12;21
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And give.00;11;12;21 – 00;11;13;22
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Me all the things that I.00;11;13;22 – 00;11;19;16
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Need for my becoming an engineer or becoming an artist or becoming whatever.00;11;19;16 – 00;11;20;00
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It happens.00;11;20;00 – 00;11;23;23
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To be. And that that it does require.00;11;23;25 – 00;11;26;10
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Us all being that.00;11;26;10 – 00;11;41;12
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Face in that. And I think that’s one area that we’re really falling down at the moment because, you know, we’ve got we’re coming to a point where a lot of people are doing jobs that they’re not actually getting paid well for, not getting paid enough for. And that.00;11;41;12 – 00;11;43;22
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Means that we’re breaking down that actual system of.00;11;43;22 – 00;11;48;04
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Hey, if we all do our jobs properly and we all do them well, we’re all going to be.00;11;48;04 – 00;11;57;00
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Rewarded for that and we’re all going to support each other for that is being broken down now a little bit. And I think that’s really sad and I think that’s causing a lot of that tension in society.00;11;57;03 – 00;11;58;21
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And we need to really think about that.00;11;58;21 – 00;11;59;15
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And think about the fact that.00;11;59;15 – 00;12;00;07
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Everyone.00;12;00;10 – 00;12;02;09
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Who is doing the job actually.00;12;02;09 – 00;12;03;14
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Deserves to be paid at a.00;12;03;14 – 00;12;05;09
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Rate that actually means that they’re.00;12;05;12 – 00;12;07;22
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There. They’re surviving well, really well.00;12;07;22 – 00;12;16;01
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Yeah. Rather than having a small percentage of people making all the money and everyone else is suffering and struggling to do that.00;12;16;04 – 00;12;31;02
Speaker 1
Yeah, we’re definitely we value certain roles more than others for for reasons that aren’t entirely clear. The really important ones. Like teachers, right?00;12;31;04 – 00;12;32;13
Speaker 3
Yeah, exactly. Like teachers.00;12;32;13 – 00;12;35;18
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Nurses, the people.00;12;35;18 – 00;12;40;22
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Who clean out front. I mean, it’s an extreme area because, yeah, things get dirty.00;12;40;24 – 00;12;44;11
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We get infections, we get all the rest of it. Right. That.00;12;44;13 – 00;12;46;24
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So we need to really value everybody.00;12;46;24 – 00;12;47;18
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In society.00;12;47;18 – 00;12;50;25
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And I don’t think we do enough of that and.00;12;50;26 – 00;12;52;07
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Realize how important it is.00;12;52;10 – 00;13;03;02
Speaker 1
I mean you view that that sort of cohesiveness of of humans as, as, as a function of specialization though. Is that is that a fair sort of summary of what you’re saying.00;13;03;02 – 00;13;12;14
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. Which is really it’s an interesting dichotomy. Right. I’m arguing that by specializing we, we became more connected. Yeah.00;13;12;16 – 00;13;13;00
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Whereas we.00;13;13;00 – 00;13;14;00
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All know normally you think.00;13;14;00 – 00;13;24;02
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About specialization and actually removing yourself, whereas what I’m arguing is that by specializing we’re actually becoming more connected because we’re really like we have to rely on each other more to do that.00;13;24;03 – 00;13;28;14
Speaker 3
I think I talk about, you know, you Bill Gates.00;13;28;17 – 00;13;32;05
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I had to go out and find his own food and.00;13;32;08 – 00;13;35;28
Speaker 3
Work the fields and all the rest of it. He would have never come out with, Yeah, the.00;13;35;28 – 00;13;37;04
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Personal computer and so on.00;13;37;05 – 00;13;38;11
Speaker 3
I would have never had time.00;13;38;11 – 00;13;39;28
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To do all those things. And so we need.00;13;39;28 – 00;13;41;23
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To give people time to do.00;13;41;23 – 00;13;43;26
Speaker 2
Those things, but then we need to support them in doing.00;13;43;26 – 00;13;44;24
Speaker 3
That.00;13;44;26 – 00;14;06;08
Speaker 1
Right. I also question Bill Gates ability to hunt. Maybe, maybe that’s a selection of of specializing attack. You know, you’re not you’re not you’re letting one skill set go for another one. Friend. Okay. I’ll start making jokes at Bill Gates expense.00;14;06;10 – 00;14;08;22
Speaker 3
It’s I mean, like.00;14;08;25 – 00;14;28;05
Speaker 1
Hey there. If you made it this far through the episode, you’re probably enjoying this conversation and learning a few new things along the way. If so, I’d really appreciate your support so we can bring you even more quality science and nature content to YouTube. Head on over to our Patreon page to find out how you can support us directly.00;14;28;07 – 00;15;15;08
Speaker 1
We have three tiers you can join and they started only a dollar a month. The links in the description below and thank you to our existing patrons for their support. Now on with the show. Okay, so if we’re talking about human evolution, we’re still talking about fairly small, homogenous groups of people. And one thing you talked about in the book, which I thought was really interesting, is how our visual perception is so cue to faces and how this hard wiring to recognize faces actually creates some problems in terms of who we view as part of our group and who we view as not part of our group.00;15;15;10 – 00;15;19;18
Speaker 1
So could you talk a little bit about that? I found that really fascinating.00;15;19;20 – 00;15;21;06
Speaker 3
Yeah, it is. It’s a really.00;15;21;06 – 00;15;23;07
Speaker 2
Fascinating area that I don’t think is being.00;15;23;09 – 00;15;28;14
Speaker 3
Written about. I’m a huge amount of research on it, but.00;15;28;14 – 00;15;33;26
Speaker 2
There’s not much out in in the general population. I think we need to understand it better but.00;15;33;28 – 00;15;37;18
Speaker 3
So we can recognize thousands of.00;15;37;18 – 00;15;41;18
Speaker 2
Thousands of individuals and we recognize individuals.00;15;41;20 – 00;15;47;10
Speaker 3
Across long periods of time. So you can see someone that you haven’t seen for.00;15;47;10 – 00;15;48;23
Speaker 2
1015, 20 years time.00;15;48;23 – 00;15;55;05
Speaker 3
And they may may lost their hair. The guy gone gray, put on weight, lost weight, all these different things, which.00;15;55;05 – 00;15;58;24
Speaker 2
Actually changes the face quite a lot as well as the wrinkles and all the other.00;15;58;24 – 00;15;59;22
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Things or Botox.00;15;59;22 – 00;16;03;02
Speaker 2
Or whatever they happen to date their face, get a nice job and so on.00;16;03;06 – 00;16;11;19
Speaker 3
And we’ll still recognize that individual. And it’s quite amazing that we’re able to do that. And we actually do that because we don’t recognize individuals based.00;16;11;19 – 00;16;14;22
Speaker 2
On all the parts of the face. We don’t do it like we.00;16;14;24 – 00;16;23;02
Speaker 3
Normally do with other objects, but rather on the relationship of the different parts. So how far apart the eyes are and how far the.00;16;23;05 – 00;16;25;24
Speaker 2
Nose is down close to the mouth and all those.00;16;26;00 – 00;16;30;24
Speaker 3
That’s a relationship and it’s the relationship relative to this template.00;16;30;24 – 00;16;36;03
Speaker 2
That we have. So we have this average face in our brain in an area called the physical face area.00;16;36;10 – 00;16;40;13
Speaker 3
And then average face is the average of all the.00;16;40;13 – 00;16;41;19
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Faces we’ve ever seen.00;16;41;19 – 00;16;47;15
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And then we detect faces relative to that, how far.00;16;47;15 – 00;16;51;05
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Apart the nose is and eyes and everything relative to that average face.00;16;51;09 – 00;16;53;17
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Now that every face is based on all.00;16;53;17 – 00;16;54;13
Speaker 2
The faces that we’ve.00;16;54;13 – 00;17;02;07
Speaker 3
Seen and we detect when we originally would have been moving around, we would have been in family.00;17;02;07 – 00;17;06;12
Speaker 2
Groups. And so everybody we saw would have been in the family and families.00;17;06;14 – 00;17;07;16
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You can detect whether or.00;17;07;16 – 00;17;09;04
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Not someone’s from the same family or not.00;17;09;04 – 00;17;11;10
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Because they’re those ratios.00;17;11;10 – 00;17;14;21
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Are actually closer together if they’re from the same family.00;17;14;23 – 00;17;21;02
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And so we’re able to detect if someone’s from our group because.00;17;21;04 – 00;17;23;05
Speaker 2
They’re closer together.00;17;23;08 – 00;17;29;26
Speaker 3
Now, this is, of course, going on to cause an issue, because if things if those ratios are further.00;17;29;26 – 00;17;34;04
Speaker 2
Apart, if the face that we see is close to average.00;17;34;07 – 00;17;35;25
Speaker 3
Then that sets off a fight or flight.00;17;35;25 – 00;17;36;13
Speaker 2
Response because.00;17;36;13 – 00;17;38;23
Speaker 3
That says this person isn’t part of our group.00;17;38;23 – 00;17;39;22
Speaker 2
This person is somebody.00;17;39;22 – 00;17;46;15
Speaker 3
Else. And that is where we have an issue with with race for example, because the faces that.00;17;46;15 – 00;17;53;04
Speaker 2
We see most often are faces that are of our race. And that doesn’t matter where you actually come from. There’s a lot of evidence for that.00;17;53;07 – 00;17;54;15
Speaker 3
But you mainly see.00;17;54;15 – 00;17;57;15
Speaker 2
People, of course, because when you’re younger, you see people within your.00;17;57;15 – 00;17;58;12
Speaker 3
Family, but.00;17;58;12 – 00;18;00;17
Speaker 2
Also what’s on TV and what you actually watch.00;18;00;17 – 00;18;01;12
Speaker 3
And even now.00;18;01;18 – 00;18;02;25
Speaker 2
On Facebook and so on.00;18;03;00 – 00;18;03;15
Speaker 3
The feeds.00;18;03;15 – 00;18;08;11
Speaker 2
You get are actually usually no more and more than likely members of your race.00;18;08;16 – 00;18;10;20
Speaker 3
And so we’re always saying people or we’re mainly.00;18;10;20 – 00;18;11;22
Speaker 2
Saying people in the same race.00;18;11;27 – 00;18;22;29
Speaker 3
So of people from other races they deviate much further apart from. And so we have this automatic response to that that says this person isn’t part of your group, so.00;18;22;29 – 00;18;27;06
Speaker 2
Therefore you need to do something about it. And that sets off your fight or flight response.00;18;27;06 – 00;18;29;14
Speaker 3
And also means that with there’s the other race.00;18;29;14 – 00;18;30;00
Speaker 2
Effect that.00;18;30;00 – 00;18;35;10
Speaker 3
We we don’t recognize people from other races as well because they’re further away from that.00;18;35;10 – 00;18;39;05
Speaker 2
Average that we have that average template we have. So therefore we have much.00;18;39;07 – 00;18;41;01
Speaker 3
More difficulty recognizing people from.00;18;41;01 – 00;18;41;27
Speaker 2
Other races.00;18;41;29 – 00;18;44;14
Speaker 3
And we also bring to people.00;18;44;14 – 00;18;45;12
Speaker 2
From other races much.00;18;45;12 – 00;18;46;21
Speaker 3
Quicker because.00;18;46;24 – 00;18;53;13
Speaker 2
Brian is saying, hey, this is somebody who’s not part of that group. So we need to orient to them to make sure that they’re not going to do something.00;18;53;15 – 00;18;54;17
Speaker 3
And that goes back.00;18;54;23 – 00;18;59;14
Speaker 2
You know, millions of years ago. It’s not because we’re racist today, but it goes back to this.00;18;59;19 – 00;19;18;09
Speaker 3
But it is an automatic response. It speeds up our ride. It makes us breathe more shallow, really. It pumps blood to our muscles and so on. So and it dilates our pupils. And so if you meet someone who’s from another race, this is going to happen automatically. If you have.00;19;18;12 – 00;19;20;18
Speaker 2
A very narrow template.00;19;20;20 – 00;19;26;06
Speaker 3
And they’re going to know that because they’re going to automatically detect that your muscles, your face.00;19;26;06 – 00;19;29;04
Speaker 2
Is becoming flushed because blood stains pump through your.00;19;29;11 – 00;19;34;21
Speaker 3
Muscles. Wow. Your eyes are dilated so they can time, but they’re not going to realize that they’re.00;19;34;21 – 00;19;41;11
Speaker 2
Actually recognizing that. And so they’re going to have the same response issue, which is a fight or flight response, which is going to make that more difficult.00;19;41;12 – 00;19;42;19
Speaker 3
So we all need to recognize.00;19;42;19 – 00;19;43;11
Speaker 2
That that’s actually.00;19;43;11 – 00;19;44;24
Speaker 3
Happening when.00;19;44;24 – 00;19;48;02
Speaker 2
This happens. And of course, it’s not something that’s taught.00;19;48;03 – 00;19;50;23
Speaker 3
I don’t believe in law.00;19;50;23 – 00;19;53;19
Speaker 2
Enforcement and the army and so on, but.00;19;53;19 – 00;19;56;06
Speaker 3
It is why we have or it’s one of.00;19;56;06 – 00;20;05;00
Speaker 2
The components why we have difficulty. Alston way one race against another. And this happens everywhere.00;20;05;00 – 00;20;06;01
Speaker 3
And I’m not.00;20;06;01 – 00;20;14;18
Speaker 2
I’m not the outsider. It’s a big issue in the US. In fact, Japan is actually according to the OECD, Japan’s the most racist country in the world. So, you know.00;20;14;25 – 00;20;16;10
Speaker 3
And that is because it’s such a.00;20;16;10 – 00;20;23;07
Speaker 2
Homogeneous country. Most people in Japan are Japanese and all of their media is around Japanese faces and so on.00;20;23;07 – 00;20;25;18
Speaker 3
So they have a much bigger response.00;20;25;18 – 00;20;27;27
Speaker 2
To this template than.00;20;27;27 – 00;20;32;27
Speaker 3
Than in other countries. But it most people have that. And so what we’ve got to do is look.00;20;32;27 – 00;20;42;08
Speaker 2
At lots of different faces, radio and and you can actually widen that template, which is really interesting. We can actually try and it’s important to me much wider so that it’s not as likely to.00;20;42;10 – 00;20;43;01
Speaker 3
Activate.00;20;43;01 – 00;20;45;14
Speaker 2
And causes fight or flight response.00;20;45;16 – 00;20;49;21
Speaker 1
This this this fusiform face area.00;20;49;23 – 00;20;50;28
Speaker 2
Fusiform face area.00;20;51;01 – 00;21;01;19
Speaker 1
Yeah that that’s a it’s an actual part of the brain that is like that’s making these calculations. I mean, is it fast, Is that happening.00;21;01;22 – 00;21;08;28
Speaker 3
So it’s all subconscious. So you’re talking well it activates within 170 milliseconds.00;21;08;28 – 00;21;11;24
Speaker 2
So it’s sub seconds.00;21;11;26 – 00;21;17;18
Speaker 3
It’s like really quick and it’s happening automatically. And we also know there’s great.00;21;17;18 – 00;21;18;26
Speaker 2
Research now showing.00;21;18;29 – 00;21;20;28
Speaker 3
That it will do it on a group basis.00;21;20;28 – 00;21;24;00
Speaker 2
As well. So if you’re in a room, it’ll actually detect.00;21;24;03 – 00;21;25;22
Speaker 3
So it’ll orient you to.00;21;25;22 – 00;21;28;07
Speaker 2
The individuals who are from another race.00;21;28;09 – 00;21;29;14
Speaker 3
So even with that.00;21;29;14 – 00;21;30;12
Speaker 2
And knowing about it, so.00;21;30;12 – 00;21;32;01
Speaker 3
There’s 100 people there and.00;21;32;01 – 00;21;35;25
Speaker 2
There’s one person who’s from a different race, you, you will orient straight to that person.00;21;35;25 – 00;21;36;12
Speaker 3
Without even.00;21;36;12 – 00;21;36;27
Speaker 2
Realizing.00;21;36;27 – 00;21;38;14
Speaker 3
That you’re doing that.00;21;38;16 – 00;21;43;05
Speaker 2
And you want to take them and then process that individual’s there and it’s something that you.00;21;43;07 – 00;21;48;23
Speaker 3
Need to attend to and then you need to attend to it so that your more conscious.00;21;48;23 – 00;21;51;21
Speaker 2
Areas, your brain can go all hang on, somebody that I.00;21;51;21 – 00;21;56;03
Speaker 3
Know or somebody that I worry about or whatever. But of course we don’t do that because of the.00;21;56;03 – 00;21;59;00
Speaker 2
Fact this 100 people there and we don’t have the time to.00;21;59;07 – 00;22;08;01
Speaker 3
Do that. And we have to realize that our brains are involved in an environment where there’s very few people and we’ve only had lots of people.00;22;08;01 – 00;22;14;20
Speaker 2
In our environment in the last hundred or so years or 200 years, 300 years, depending on where you’re actually from.00;22;14;20 – 00;22;18;02
Speaker 3
But most vast majority of people I only started reading.00;22;18;02 – 00;22;20;04
Speaker 2
That right in the last generation.00;22;20;06 – 00;22;22;28
Speaker 3
But too, they only started living in large groups.00;22;22;28 – 00;22;24;15
Speaker 2
In the last generation or two.00;22;24;15 – 00;22;25;24
Speaker 3
So bringing some in.00;22;25;24 – 00;22;30;00
Speaker 2
Evolved to actually how with this environment where there’s lots of people around.00;22;30;01 – 00;22;30;18
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;22;30;21 – 00;22;32;24
Speaker 2
And so we need to be aware of the fact that.00;22;32;24 – 00;22;36;01
Speaker 3
We’re still using a primitive brain.00;22;36;01 – 00;22;40;12
Speaker 2
Right? Our brain is still the same. It was, it was 2000, 3000, 4000 years ago.00;22;40;18 – 00;22;41;01
Speaker 3
When we’re.00;22;41;01 – 00;22;43;10
Speaker 2
All living in small tribes.00;22;43;13 – 00;23;18;01
Speaker 1
So if I’m you know, I live in New York City, so I’m walking down the street and like where I live is is incredibly diverse. I mean, you have every ethnicity represented. I mean, is my brain just going crazy? Is my is I raising my heart rate in my, you know, stress level just being around and my brain trying to process all these different faces or by virtue of living here, am I starting to is my average face starting to look different than my race?00;23;18;01 – 00;23;26;20
Speaker 1
Is it starting to look, you know, more of an amalgam of or average of all of these faces that I encounter all the time?00;23;26;22 – 00;23;33;09
Speaker 3
But yes, most likely it’s probably becoming more a wider than than a normal than.00;23;33;09 – 00;23;36;23
Speaker 2
Than your average than an individual that lives in a more homogeneous.00;23;36;25 – 00;23;48;05
Speaker 3
Society. So you would have a wider template, which is great if you’re actually attending to those people regularly. And and you’re associating them with being part of your group.00;23;48;05 – 00;23;48;25
Speaker 2
So.00;23;48;27 – 00;23;51;28
Speaker 3
I mean, you know, if you’re a New Yorker and these.00;23;51;28 – 00;23;53;27
Speaker 2
Are New Yorkers, so we’re all part of the same group.00;23;53;27 – 00;23;59;02
Speaker 3
So but if you’re walking around and thinking, these are part of my group, I don’t.00;23;59;02 – 00;23;59;15
Speaker 2
Actually want.00;23;59;15 – 00;24;09;25
Speaker 3
To do with them, then it won’t incorporated has. So you have to be incorporating and these are these are good people who are part of my group rather than I’m, I’m going to ignore them and I don’t want.00;24;10;01 – 00;24;11;27
Speaker 2
To be part of it, not really attending to.00;24;12;01 – 00;24;16;26
Speaker 3
So yes, if you are incorporating them into your group, then.00;24;16;26 – 00;24;22;07
Speaker 2
Yes, they will become part of your template. So they therefore will adjust according to that and.00;24;22;07 – 00;24;22;23
Speaker 3
Which is quite.00;24;22;23 – 00;24;24;04
Speaker 2
Amazing that we can do that.00;24;24;04 – 00;24;27;17
Speaker 3
And and it’s been shown by, as with kids, kids who read.00;24;27;17 – 00;24;35;01
Speaker 2
Books with lots and lots of different faces from lots and lots of different races, don’t have the same basic.00;24;35;03 – 00;24;38;27
Speaker 3
And similarly, adults who do that for a period of time can.00;24;38;27 – 00;24;46;13
Speaker 2
Decrease that effect as well. So we can be trying it out, which is awesome.00;24;46;16 – 00;25;07;05
Speaker 1
How does confirmation bias play into this? Because if we’re noticing people have different that are different from us or don’t fit our average template, are we more likely to, you know, pick them out of a crowd doing something that we don’t like or how does that work? Yes, I.00;25;07;05 – 00;25;11;21
Speaker 3
Mean, there’s a whole bunch of blogs it’s really difficult to get over. And this is, of course, not.00;25;11;21 – 00;25;19;27
Speaker 2
A whole lot of aspect to it, which is all the stereotypes we have in our brains as well. So we have this automatic thing which is unconscious, which we’ve been talking.00;25;19;27 – 00;25;20;27
Speaker 3
About, and then we have this.00;25;21;04 – 00;25;28;00
Speaker 2
More explicit thing, which is what we actually learn, what we see in the media, what we’re told by our parents, what we’re told by our friends, which.00;25;28;00 – 00;25;29;02
Speaker 3
Is out.00;25;29;04 – 00;25;31;29
Speaker 2
There, is a stereotypes that we have. And then we’re constantly wanting to.00;25;31;29 – 00;25;40;08
Speaker 3
Confirm that because we are constantly wanting our world to be the way we we.00;25;40;09 – 00;25;46;00
Speaker 2
Expect expected to be, right? We don’t want to be shocked that the world is different to the way we expect it socially. We way.00;25;46;02 – 00;25;46;24
Speaker 3
We live in a.00;25;46;24 – 00;25;51;13
Speaker 2
World which is where different races behave in certain.00;25;51;13 – 00;25;51;28
Speaker 3
Ways.00;25;52;05 – 00;25;56;09
Speaker 2
Then we’re going to concern that constantly and we’re going to notice when that happens.00;25;56;16 – 00;25;58;00
Speaker 3
And they behave in that way. And we’re.00;25;58;00 – 00;25;59;14
Speaker 2
Not going to notice when they don’t.00;25;59;15 – 00;26;09;18
Speaker 3
Behave in that way. And this is of course, why and I know a lot of people call it woke and all the rest of it, but this is why there’s been a big push for the media.00;26;09;18 – 00;26;17;18
Speaker 2
To start using different races as the hero in their stories or as the main characters in their stories and so on.00;26;17;22 – 00;26;21;28
Speaker 3
Not only for those races that haven’t seen.00;26;21;28 – 00;26;40;18
Speaker 2
That before and therefore need those people to look up to to like what they have, you know, heroes that they can actually know, hide. They’re really cool, but also so that those people from the other races can go, those people are also good, but they can also do these other things and start challenging some of those stereotypes.00;26;40;21 – 00;26;41;07
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;26;41;10 – 00;26;42;26
Speaker 3
But it is really hard because we.00;26;42;26 – 00;26;51;22
Speaker 2
Do have this confirmation bias that is constantly going on, which is to always ignore what doesn’t fit with what we want and to actually go.00;26;51;26 – 00;26;53;03
Speaker 3
And I don’t think most people.00;26;53;03 – 00;27;15;06
Speaker 2
Realize that either. And people realize that the perception that we have of the world and what we actually see and hear and feel is actually generated by our brains is not actually what’s out there. And we’re actually got this illusion going on all the time, which is based on making our lives as simple and as as regimented as is expected as possible, so that we feel comfortable in our eyes.00;27;15;07 – 00;27;36;27
Speaker 1
Q Yeah, yeah, we’re seeing things through a filter. I mean, that’s one of the reasons, like I always I really try to read widely even things that I don’t that I disagree with. I follow people on social media I don’t agree with. I try to get a lot of different perspectives. I usually end up agreeing more with one person than another, but at least I try to like not filter.00;27;37;00 – 00;27;50;01
Speaker 1
And it seems like social media exacerbates this as well with this confirmation bias thing because it’s, you know, algorithmically driven to show us things that things will interact with and comment on.00;27;50;01 – 00;27;52;24
Speaker 3
And yeah, I don’t understand.00;27;52;24 – 00;28;01;21
Speaker 2
Why governments allow the algorithms to still continue to go on in these. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Social media because it.00;28;01;21 – 00;28;02;27
Speaker 3
Is extremely.00;28;02;27 – 00;28;04;02
Speaker 2
Bad for.00;28;04;04 – 00;28;04;18
Speaker 3
All of.00;28;04;18 – 00;28;06;05
Speaker 2
Us to be constantly.00;28;06;05 – 00;28;07;01
Speaker 3
Fed.00;28;07;03 – 00;28;10;05
Speaker 2
Stuff that confirms our biases. It just makes us.00;28;10;05 – 00;28;12;20
Speaker 3
More and more driven in one way. And that’s all they’re.00;28;12;20 – 00;28;18;02
Speaker 2
Doing is they’re working at what people actually what they call emotional biases.00;28;18;04 – 00;28;19;15
Speaker 3
And then driving them further.00;28;19;15 – 00;28;30;29
Speaker 2
And further and further down that road so that they’ll keep looking at because it does keep confirming what they think is what the world is like and it keeps taking them down these rabbit holes. And we know there’s great research going to.00;28;30;29 – 00;28;32;03
Speaker 3
Get rid of the algorithms.00;28;32;03 – 00;28;37;08
Speaker 2
People actually come together, right? People are more likely to agree with each other. There’s great study with.00;28;37;08 – 00;28;39;21
Speaker 3
Some Republicans and Democrats, and.00;28;39;21 – 00;28;40;16
Speaker 2
They showed that.00;28;40;18 – 00;28;43;28
Speaker 3
If you get rid of the algorithms in the background, then Republicans.00;28;43;29 – 00;28;50;25
Speaker 2
Democrats are more likely to agree with each other. And if you have those algorithms running in the background, then they become more separated from each other.00;28;50;25 – 00;28;54;15
Speaker 3
So, right, these are really driving us apart and that are causing a lot of the.00;28;54;15 – 00;28;56;05
Speaker 2
Political issues that we’re having all over the.00;28;56;05 – 00;28;58;22
Speaker 3
World because.00;28;58;22 – 00;29;07;17
Speaker 2
We’re becoming more separated and we’re just being fed this information, which is not is given in our biases. And we need to I mean, governments need to do something about.00;29;07;17 – 00;29;13;00
Speaker 3
I don’t understand. And back in the day when we first had TV subliminal.00;29;13;00 – 00;29;17;25
Speaker 2
Advertising stop, and so the advertisers started using subliminal advertising where they’d flesh up something.00;29;17;25 – 00;29;18;21
Speaker 3
Really quickly and then.00;29;18;28 – 00;29;19;17
Speaker 2
Get rid of it.00;29;19;17 – 00;29;22;17
Speaker 3
And governments within a couple of months turned around.00;29;22;17 – 00;29;25;04
Speaker 2
And said, hang on, this is actually influencing people’s.00;29;25;04 – 00;29;35;11
Speaker 3
Behavior without them being aware of it. So we need to ban it and they banned it very, very quickly. Whereas what we’d be doing now is far worse and far, far more manipulative than that.00;29;35;13 – 00;29;39;19
Speaker 2
And yet governments won’t do anything about it. It just makes sign to mind. I understand.00;29;39;19 – 00;29;41;03
Speaker 3
It’s all money is.00;29;41;09 – 00;29;43;12
Speaker 2
Extremely wealthy, paid for this guy.00;29;43;14 – 00;29;47;25
Speaker 3
At the moment who are controlling that. But we do need.00;29;47;25 – 00;29;50;22
Speaker 2
To ban it with Nice to be stopped.00;29;50;24 – 00;30;01;22
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean if there’s one theme on this podcast, it’s that social media is evil and we all need to disengage from it and.00;30;01;24 – 00;30;07;00
Speaker 3
And it’s really sad because it could be done really well if it was done in a way.00;30;07;03 – 00;30;11;03
Speaker 2
Which was actually to connect us and if it was done in a way which was about.00;30;11;03 – 00;30;17;10
Speaker 3
Informing people about the truth, I think it could be done extremely, extremely well. Yeah, it’s.00;30;17;11 – 00;30;21;21
Speaker 2
It’s not and it’s done because there’s a couple of big companies that want to make a.00;30;21;21 – 00;30;24;20
Speaker 3
Lot of money, and that’s what they’re doing. They’re making huge.00;30;24;20 – 00;30;32;03
Speaker 2
Amounts of money so that Facebook or whatever they call themselves now. Yeah, just might cheats profits again bounce back very.00;30;32;03 – 00;30;41;15
Speaker 3
Quickly from the matter Yeah debacle but we we need to realize that unfortunately not all companies but most.00;30;41;15 – 00;30;42;04
Speaker 2
Companies are.00;30;42;04 – 00;30;45;13
Speaker 3
About making a lot of money and they’ll do whatever they can to do that.00;30;45;13 – 00;30;51;29
Speaker 2
And we need to realize that and we need to somehow take that away from that ability, away from them because.00;30;51;29 – 00;30;56;02
Speaker 3
It’s manipulating people and really need to be bought.00;30;56;04 – 00;31;15;21
Speaker 1
Yeah, I was just, you know, recently there’s a lot of colleagues of mine, former colleagues have been laid off that work in journalism. And I was just thinking, you know, talking about the money aspect of that, we’re getting we’re getting a little bit off the science. But, you know, those companies have sucked a lot of money out of journalism.00;31;15;24 – 00;31;34;08
Speaker 1
They’ve kind of ruined the publishing aspect of journalism. And so journalists, you know, their role is to kind of bridge in a lot of ways the divide between people and find out what the facts are. And, you know, kind of classic journalism, at least in the United States and Western world, it’s kind of boring, kind of does connect people in a way.00;31;34;08 – 00;31;44;04
Speaker 1
And now that’s that’s all getting getting pulled out and put into these social companies, which is kind of sad, you know?00;31;44;07 – 00;31;45;11
Speaker 3
Yeah, I look.00;31;45;15 – 00;31;46;15
Speaker 1
At.00;31;46;18 – 00;31;49;11
Speaker 3
Yeah. And I don’t know how we can have a really democratic.00;31;49;13 – 00;31;54;21
Speaker 2
Country without having good journalists. We need good investigative journalism.00;31;54;23 – 00;31;55;20
Speaker 3
To have truly.00;31;55;20 – 00;32;06;22
Speaker 2
Democratic country because we need people questioning what’s actually happening and we need access to the information. And you need good journalists to do that. And unfortunately, all.00;32;06;25 – 00;32;08;03
Speaker 3
The journalists there are.00;32;08;07 – 00;32;12;26
Speaker 2
Becoming freelance, which makes it really difficult for them to spend long periods of time.00;32;13;03 – 00;32;16;04
Speaker 3
Investigating whatever it happens to be. And being.00;32;16;04 – 00;32;18;20
Speaker 2
Able to, you know, take the risk of going.00;32;18;20 – 00;32;21;10
Speaker 3
Down rabbit holes and everything, which is when we find.00;32;21;10 – 00;32;23;20
Speaker 2
Out the important stuff, right, when they actually do.00;32;23;20 – 00;32;26;14
Speaker 3
That. Yeah. And without that, we can’t have.00;32;26;14 – 00;32;31;05
Speaker 2
Democracy, right? So we need to invest back in journalism. Yeah, Yeah.00;32;31;07 – 00;32;32;03
Speaker 3
The two big themes are.00;32;32;03 – 00;32;34;18
Speaker 2
That science and journalism and journalism.00;32;34;18 – 00;32;37;03
Speaker 3
At both. Yeah. Yes, yes. There’s somebody.00;32;37;03 – 00;32;42;12
Speaker 2
Did recently, which means that we can have great democracies that we use that.00;32;42;15 – 00;33;04;05
Speaker 1
Or even I mean, even just agreeing on what what facts are. I mean, that that’s that’s another, you know, just verification of facts and saying, hey, these are the facts. Let’s let’s respond to them. But it seems a lot of the time, what’s happening now is it’s just let’s have let’s put out the opinion before before we know the facts or even corrects.00;33;04;08 – 00;33;16;10
Speaker 1
So anyways, I aside from the confirmation bias thing, I think that there’s that corrosive aspect of it as well. It’s it’s it’s basically defending our fact checkers, which is not good.00;33;16;13 – 00;33;17;28
Speaker 3
Yeah. And I think that also the 20.00;33;17;28 – 00;33;20;26
Speaker 2
Four hour news feed now.00;33;20;29 – 00;33;22;17
Speaker 3
Makes enough nothing’s.00;33;22;17 – 00;33;34;09
Speaker 2
Investigated and it’s just constantly Yeah. Uptight, uptight, uptight, uptight. Which means that it’s not it’s not checked before it actually goes out and.00;33;34;11 – 00;33;38;04
Speaker 3
Yeah, so many problems with that. But I don’t know how we do around that.00;33;38;07 – 00;33;45;25
Speaker 1
We said, yeah, we shouldn’t blame it completely on social media. That started with, you know, the 24 hour cable news cycle as well.00;33;45;27 – 00;33;49;11
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.00;33;49;14 – 00;34;21;14
Speaker 1
So bringing it back to this question of race, you know, sort of race recognition, I guess you would call it from this fusiform face area. One thing I do kind of and you can push back on this, but one thing I do find encouraging about that is it it it just says in a way that that, you know, at least I don’t want to say racism because there’s various components of it, but at least recognition of race is is a human condition.00;34;21;15 – 00;34;47;16
Speaker 1
Like you brought up Japan. If you’re in Japan, you might experience some kind of racism or stereotyping because you’re white, you know, or some other race. I think sometimes it gets put specifically on European people of European ancestry, but it seems like this could happen anywhere in terms of race recognition and confirmation bias. And I mean, do you agree with that?00;34;47;18 – 00;34;57;18
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, if racism does make public because we both come from Western countries, we hear about it more.00;34;57;18 – 00;35;01;18
Speaker 2
In the West country than here in Australia. We hear about a lot.00;35;01;20 – 00;35;05;12
Speaker 3
And but it’s actually not it. Well, I’m.00;35;05;12 – 00;35;10;20
Speaker 2
Not going to say it’s not. It’s bad because it’s always bad, right? Racism is bad and I’m not going to it’s not that.00;35;10;20 – 00;35;15;12
Speaker 3
But yes, but yes, you talk about like the wages in in China.00;35;15;12 – 00;35;23;29
Speaker 2
I mean, that’s also what’s happened there. Are you talk about. Yeah, awful things with Thailand and.00;35;24;02 – 00;35;27;09
Speaker 3
Cambodia or you think about what happened in Rwanda and.00;35;27;09 – 00;35;28;11
Speaker 2
All these things are these.00;35;28;17 – 00;35;28;25
Speaker 3
It.00;35;28;25 – 00;35;30;07
Speaker 2
Happens all over the world.00;35;30;07 – 00;35;32;19
Speaker 3
And it’s it’s.00;35;32;21 – 00;35;35;23
Speaker 2
It’s really sad and it’s it’s a it.00;35;35;25 – 00;35;38;09
Speaker 3
Happens. We have races.00;35;38;09 – 00;35;58;17
Speaker 2
Because we have groups, right? I mean, races originally evolved because we had groups that are set and groups moved to different areas and therefore they have all slightly different skin tones and so on because they were living in different countries with different conditions. And so that actually happened because of the groups that we formed.00;35;58;19 – 00;35;59;27
Speaker 3
And then now.00;35;59;27 – 00;36;03;14
Speaker 2
That we’re trying to mix back together, it’s causing actually.00;36;03;16 – 00;36;04;03
Speaker 3
Problems.00;36;04;10 – 00;36;05;14
Speaker 2
From that point of view, which.00;36;05;14 – 00;36;07;05
Speaker 3
Is something I think we can.00;36;07;05 – 00;36;08;27
Speaker 2
Solve if we all work together to do.00;36;08;27 – 00;36;10;02
Speaker 3
That. And there’s multiple.00;36;10;02 – 00;36;20;12
Speaker 2
Aspects to it. One of them is the face template and other ways confirmation bias and the stereotypes that we actually need to work on. Another one, of course, is, is just the fact that.00;36;20;12 – 00;36;22;02
Speaker 3
We would we’re biased.00;36;22;08 – 00;36;24;18
Speaker 2
Towards our own races.00;36;24;18 – 00;36;25;15
Speaker 3
Through.00;36;25;18 – 00;36;48;00
Speaker 2
The fact that we grow up in that age race, right? That society’s set up where we’re caught, we’re more likely to associate with people from outside races and we probably need more melting pots like New York, where everybody is mixing with each other. Body you need to meet. You can always you know, there are no I know in New York there’s areas where, you know, there’s a lot more of certain races.00;36;48;02 – 00;36;59;20
Speaker 2
And and that’s an interesting thing as well. But we get those yeah, those parts within more multicultural areas, you get pipes within that that stick together.00;36;59;23 – 00;37;29;06
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think that’s a I think that’s changing. It’s partially a function of you know, immigration and people coming and not speaking the language and so they tend to gravitate together and then, you know, over generations they kind of disperse out of that. But I think that’s changed. I think public education and and I think those ethnic enclaves, as we call them, are are shrinking to some degree.00;37;29;06 – 00;37;54;00
Speaker 1
And in New York, yeah, there used to be a lot more of them. And they’re still there, but they’re they’re you know, I could probably name them. I just like three of them that I could name, at least in Brooklyn. I left. So as an individual, I mean, and let’s say you don’t live in New York City, like, what can you do to to kind of expand that template?00;37;54;02 – 00;38;19;06
Speaker 1
And I was just thinking that as a child of the of the 1980s, we grew up with like The Cosby Show, which was great. I mean, it showed, you know, aside from Bill Cosby’s other things happening. But but the image, the representation was fantastic. But it was a, you know, family of a doctor and a lawyer and their kids and and they lived I think they’re supposed to live in Brooklyn, actually.00;38;19;08 – 00;38;39;29
Speaker 1
And, you know, they are successful. And they were a great family. And then but but on the flip side, we also had cops, you know, the show cops where you’re showing like people in their worst moment of their lives and I feel like it disproportionately focused on black people. So, I mean, you know, we have a lot more media options now, fortunately.00;38;39;29 – 00;38;51;01
Speaker 1
But like, is that is that a route into expanding that base template or do you really need to have like face to face interactions with people.00;38;51;03 – 00;38;53;01
Speaker 3
So it doesn’t need to be.00;38;53;01 – 00;39;05;03
Speaker 2
Face to face? So some of the research with Keats’s books, so they just had the kids reading different books and we saw a whole range of faces in those books and a.00;39;05;05 – 00;39;05;19
Speaker 3
Whole bunch.00;39;05;19 – 00;39;33;27
Speaker 2
Of different characters in the books. And it’s important to make sure that, that the characters from other races have leading roles or have positive roles in those books. And that’s of course, we did have this shift in the eighties and nineties and early 2000 where they were introducing more races into a lot of the media and stuff, but they would take secondary roles of.00;39;33;29 – 00;39;36;14
Speaker 3
The eye rather than being the primary role, or they.00;39;36;14 – 00;39;41;25
Speaker 2
Would say, you know, did that evil person in it? So they’d say, Yeah We’ve got.00;39;41;27 – 00;39;43;05
Speaker 3
Norman Meeks of people.00;39;43;05 – 00;40;03;20
Speaker 2
But then the roles that I would keep and so we’ve got to have it. So and I think he pointed to that, right, that the cops that they that criminals on the cops is always that that black person or that you know, the person that’s on the other race which is really, really sad and we need to flip that and have it the other way around.00;40;03;23 – 00;40;05;27
Speaker 3
But yeah, we can do it through the mail.00;40;05;27 – 00;40;16;12
Speaker 2
We could do it through the media if we wanted to. But I mean, sadly, it doesn’t really happen. I mean, how many Marvel superheroes are Asian or black?00;40;16;14 – 00;40;17;08
Speaker 3
One violent.00;40;17;10 – 00;40;22;24
Speaker 2
One Asian one, for example. I mean that. Yeah. Star Wars. When Star Wars had.00;40;22;26 – 00;40;29;08
Speaker 3
Yeah, an individual who was blacking out there no more leading role.00;40;29;11 – 00;40;49;12
Speaker 2
Yeah, unfortunately, he was a stormtrooper who had converted and had issues always from rather than being an actual whereas there’s still we are all Jedi most of the Jedi white or or aliens. Right. And so we need to flip that. We need to change that so that everybody and I know it sounds.00;40;49;12 – 00;40;52;00
Speaker 3
Like better to say.00;40;52;00 – 00;40;58;14
Speaker 2
It. Yeah, No, it’s true. I’ve tried. It’s not one of them. I can’t stand.00;40;58;16 – 00;40;59;24
Speaker 3
It.00;40;59;27 – 00;41;11;21
Speaker 1
I’m laughing because I’m just thinking, well, some people must have a space template of what? A stormtrooper looks like. And I think that’s kind of funny in a way. Hopefully there will come up.00;41;11;24 – 00;41;21;11
Speaker 3
A Wookie as well. it’s pretty interesting because we we’ve found that even.00;41;21;14 – 00;41;23;10
Speaker 2
Counts base templates.00;41;23;10 – 00;41;26;02
Speaker 3
So which is typical. Yeah.00;41;26;03 – 00;41;31;02
Speaker 2
Cars recognize each other based on their faces and they have a similar face template trials.00;41;31;05 – 00;41;42;23
Speaker 1
Yeah. So that’s a really deep it’s a really deep kind of ingrained thing. It’s not something that we can just dismiss. It’s that it’s not easy. The fact that it’s. Yeah.00;41;42;25 – 00;41;46;19
Speaker 2
Seriously, Seriously. yeah. Very, very old. It’s, it’s something that.00;41;46;22 – 00;41;48;00
Speaker 3
Is in every.00;41;48;00 – 00;42;00;12
Speaker 2
Mammal that’s been tested so far has had a better shot, as I’m aware, has had a face that way. And I actually I don’t think the muscles so I’m all stoic but they don’t have no motivation.00;42;00;14 – 00;42;11;07
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah but yeah, but if you think about it that makes sense because we recognize all animals, right? Do you actually approach.00;42;11;07 – 00;42;30;02
Speaker 2
Another animal face forward? So it makes a lot of sense that it’s actually devices that are what is used to actually identify each other because you’re always directing your face towards. Yeah, because that’s how we see each other. So you think of a wolf or anything approaching each other. They’re going to be face forward that will talking. You don’t very rarely.00;42;30;02 – 00;42;31;17
Speaker 3
Back up.00;42;31;19 – 00;42;40;24
Speaker 2
So that animal when you’re trying to get away best friend or foe so it so makes sense that that’s what we’ve used ever since the dawn of time to recognize each.00;42;40;24 – 00;42;41;18
Speaker 3
Other.00;42;41;21 – 00;42;55;09
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’m imagining that’s very adaptive because you’re, you know, you need to recognize that instantly. Do I need to run or? Am I walking, you know, or am I walking towards this individual in my.00;42;55;09 – 00;42;56;06
Speaker 2
Sight for my.00;42;56;06 – 00;42;57;17
Speaker 3
Yeah. And I know all.00;42;57;17 – 00;43;17;04
Speaker 2
Animals use their faces to communicate, right? And the growls and the smiles and the showing, the taste and all the rest of it in swags are saying not go away or, you know, or they’ll have, you know, that stuff, which is why we love dogs because they have those goofy eyes at us and all the rest of it when they want us to bite them and show their teeth when they want us to pet them.00;43;17;04 – 00;43;17;29
Speaker 3
And yeah.00;43;17;29 – 00;43;24;07
Speaker 2
We can understand that. So from from our own perspective. And so yeah.00;43;24;09 – 00;43;26;25
Speaker 3
We’ve all, we’ve all spaces.00;43;26;28 – 00;43;35;19
Speaker 2
We use that or I shouldn’t say all species, mammal species, all animal spirits and sentences. That’s their way of communicating with each other.00;43;35;21 – 00;43;55;29
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. Do you enjoy books about science and nature? As much as I do. They bring a lot of information together and help you learn about science and the natural world on a much deeper level than you just get from consuming news. Well, we’ve curated a great list of books over at our website. On a page we call the Reading Room.00;43;56;01 – 00;44;18;16
Speaker 1
It also features the books of all the authors that we’ve had on this podcast and any purchases made through the reading room help support our channel with no added cost to you. Check it out at Science Center dot com or look for a link in the description below. Since we’ve we’ve already dunked on on technology here and we might as well continue that thread once.00;44;18;18 – 00;44;50;10
Speaker 1
Well let’s talk about some of the deficits that we’re experiencing in terms of human connection. So, you know, we’re we’re even though maybe we’re evolved to deal with tribe, a tribe of a thousand individuals, we’re now like, what, 8 billion people? And we’re more connected. But you read news reports, there’s like a loneliness epidemic. People are anxious. It seems like the more we’re connecting online, the smaller the worlds becoming.00;44;50;10 – 00;45;07;02
Speaker 1
We’re also becoming more neurotic and depressed. So what? What is it about live interaction that’s different about, you know, than talking to somebody as as we’re talking right now?00;45;07;02 – 00;45;07;12
Speaker 2
As we’re.00;45;07;12 – 00;45;16;00
Speaker 3
Talking there? Yeah. I mean, so yeah, with there’s multiple things, right? From from an evolutionary point of view, when we, when we actually met someone.00;45;16;02 – 00;45;21;19
Speaker 2
We would first identify our friend or foe by the device, which is really, really important.00;45;21;22 – 00;45;22;14
Speaker 3
But there’s multiple.00;45;22;14 – 00;45;24;04
Speaker 2
Aspects to that. There’s not.00;45;24;04 – 00;45;25;16
Speaker 3
Just the face, but.00;45;25;16 – 00;45;29;26
Speaker 2
Also I guess. So I gaze is really, really important for us, which we don’t get.00;45;30;03 – 00;45;31;02
Speaker 3
You and I.00;45;31;02 – 00;45;34;27
Speaker 2
Have the eye gaze now because just you and I talking to each other.00;45;35;02 – 00;45;37;12
Speaker 3
But if you have more than two people on.00;45;37;14 – 00;45;39;02
Speaker 2
Any of these chat groups.00;45;39;08 – 00;45;40;20
Speaker 3
You will have multiple faces.00;45;40;20 – 00;45;42;13
Speaker 2
All looking at you at the same time.00;45;42;13 – 00;45;51;20
Speaker 3
That if you imagine if you’re in the park was, you’re at a pub and five people come up to you and all stood in front of you.00;45;51;22 – 00;45;53;01
Speaker 2
Just staring directly.00;45;53;01 – 00;45;59;24
Speaker 3
At you, how you would see it, and you would feel very confronted by that. And so our brain automatically when we have that, when we have multiple.00;45;59;24 – 00;46;08;10
Speaker 2
Faces, all looking at us and directly at us, becomes confronted by that. And there’s this automatic process which says, Hey, this is not known, this is odd.00;46;08;10 – 00;46;09;10
Speaker 3
Which is why most people.00;46;09;10 – 00;46;15;23
Speaker 2
Don’t like doing meetings and all those sorts of things on those those platforms. And most people will turn off their video.00;46;15;23 – 00;46;18;24
Speaker 3
Cameras, although with Hawaii and do other things because it’s.00;46;18;24 – 00;46;19;27
Speaker 2
Really confronting to do that.00;46;20;02 – 00;46;25;05
Speaker 3
But also when we normally would actually meet up with someone, we actually touch them, so.00;46;25;11 – 00;46;29;13
Speaker 2
Appropriately touch them. And all societies have some way of appropriately.00;46;29;15 – 00;46;30;20
Speaker 3
Touching each other.00;46;30;20 – 00;46;33;16
Speaker 2
When we actually great. So in stoic societies like.00;46;33;19 – 00;46;42;29
Speaker 3
Here and in the we shake hands with each other, even the Inuits, they actually drop noses because only part.00;46;42;29 – 00;46;44;14
Speaker 2
Of their skin that’s actually showing.00;46;44;20 – 00;46;47;04
Speaker 3
And the reason we do that is we have C fibers.00;46;47;04 – 00;46;52;15
Speaker 2
On our skin and the sea fibers are actually just there for touch. And that’s the only reason we have. They see farmers.00;46;52;18 – 00;46;53;26
Speaker 3
And they act by an area.00;46;53;26 – 00;47;07;26
Speaker 2
Of our brain which releases oxytocin. And oxytocin is well, I call it the love hormone, right. It’s it’s actually neurotransmitter that makes us more connected to the other person. It makes them more relaxed and it makes us feel as though this person is someone we actually like.00;47;08;03 – 00;47;10;01
Speaker 3
And so we get that as well, which we don’t.00;47;10;01 – 00;47;11;28
Speaker 2
Get when we’re actually on the.00;47;11;28 – 00;47;15;13
Speaker 3
Screen. And then we also got the body language.00;47;15;13 – 00;47;17;22
Speaker 2
So I can only see you from the shoulders.00;47;17;22 – 00;47;26;08
Speaker 3
Up, or if you’re on Instagram or any of those things, you just see you’re not part of the person or you they’re not moving, right? But we have mirror neuron.00;47;26;08 – 00;47;27;00
Speaker 2
System.00;47;27;03 – 00;47;27;27
Speaker 3
And the mirror neuron.00;47;27;27 – 00;47;35;09
Speaker 2
System actually mimics what the other person is doing in our brain. So we actually understand what they’re doing. So yeah, it was originally done with.00;47;35;09 – 00;47;40;02
Speaker 3
Monkeys where they would reach out and pick up a peanut and then a monkey watching that.00;47;40;04 – 00;47;42;04
Speaker 2
Monkey reach out and pick up a peanut.00;47;42;11 – 00;47;43;14
Speaker 3
The area of their brain.00;47;43;14 – 00;47;47;06
Speaker 2
To enable them to reach out and pick up a peanut would activate that mighty area.00;47;47;12 – 00;47;48;18
Speaker 3
And also their muscles.00;47;48;24 – 00;47;52;20
Speaker 2
Activate to a sub level. So that actually move, but they activate a.00;47;52;20 – 00;47;56;27
Speaker 3
Little bit, which is he’s really important for us.00;47;56;29 – 00;47;57;29
Speaker 2
To connect with each other.00;47;57;29 – 00;47;59;10
Speaker 3
So you’ve probably.00;47;59;10 – 00;48;00;03
Speaker 2
Seen.00;48;00;06 – 00;48;00;23
Speaker 3
I do a lot of.00;48;00;23 – 00;48;01;11
Speaker 2
Presentations.00;48;01;12 – 00;48;01;24
Speaker 3
With.00;48;01;26 – 00;48;05;13
Speaker 2
With teenagers. I do a lot of stuff in schools with.00;48;05;16 – 00;48;10;20
Speaker 3
Students and it’s amazing. You look at the group and you can tell which are the groups.00;48;10;20 – 00;48;14;01
Speaker 2
That actually hang out together because they’ll all be sitting in the same way.00;48;14;01 – 00;48;19;03
Speaker 3
And again, that’s because of that mirror neuron system is activated with the people that.00;48;19;03 – 00;48;20;07
Speaker 2
We’re actually connected.00;48;20;07 – 00;48;24;01
Speaker 3
With, and we’ll actually move into the same position without even knowing that because of this.00;48;24;01 – 00;48;24;28
Speaker 2
Mirror neurons system.00;48;24;28 – 00;48;26;15
Speaker 3
So we’ll actually mimic each.00;48;26;15 – 00;48;45;29
Speaker 2
Other in our body language so that we actually say, Hey, we’re related to each other, we’re in the same group, and that’s why you’ll see teenagers hanging out together or sitting in the same way or walking the same miles and so on, because they’re mimicking each other through these different dances. So when we don’t get that, when we’re online as well, but because we don’t see the whole body and we can’t do that.00;48;46;01 – 00;48;48;15
Speaker 3
And then there’s a whole bunch of other it’s pheromones.00;48;48;15 – 00;48;49;25
Speaker 2
So we’re not getting the pheromones.00;48;49;25 – 00;48;51;24
Speaker 3
So again, doing the touching.00;48;51;27 – 00;48;58;12
Speaker 2
Is shaking hands or, you know, rubbing noses if you’re into that or whatever it happens to be when you actually greet someone actually.00;48;58;12 – 00;49;03;08
Speaker 3
Activates. Not only that, the safe orb is in oxytocin, but also.00;49;03;08 – 00;49;03;26
Speaker 2
Pheromones.00;49;03;26 – 00;49;04;07
Speaker 3
Because you’re.00;49;04;07 – 00;49;08;25
Speaker 2
Close enough to actually get those pheromones which go up your nose and.00;49;08;28 – 00;49;09;17
Speaker 3
Into your brain.00;49;09;17 – 00;49;16;01
Speaker 2
And that activate serotonin as well, which is also a neurotransmitter that’ll relax and make us feel better.00;49;16;07 – 00;49;20;13
Speaker 3
So when we’re online, we tend to just get dopamine. We’re just going to sit it out. The language.00;49;20;13 – 00;49;21;27
Speaker 2
Is associated with, of course.00;49;21;27 – 00;49;29;17
Speaker 3
Addiction and a license. And so you get this headed over main, which is only short lasting. And so I in the book, I think I talk.00;49;29;17 – 00;49;34;01
Speaker 2
About the difference between fighting fast food versus eating a home cooked meal.00;49;34;01 – 00;49;37;13
Speaker 3
And with online interaction or online.00;49;37;15 – 00;49;38;20
Speaker 2
Communication, it’s.00;49;38;20 – 00;49;40;02
Speaker 3
Like when you’re having.00;49;40;02 – 00;49;41;19
Speaker 2
A fast food meal, you’re getting.00;49;41;19 – 00;49;42;07
Speaker 3
The dopamine.00;49;42;07 – 00;49;44;13
Speaker 2
As you do when you’re a classroom.00;49;44;16 – 00;49;45;23
Speaker 3
And that’s all you’re getting.00;49;45;23 – 00;49;56;10
Speaker 2
Whereas if you do it face to face, you get all these other neurotransmitters that we actually need and we’ve evolved, actually need, and they make us feel better and they make you better for much longer period of time.00;49;56;13 – 00;49;59;14
Speaker 3
And it’s fascinating. There’s a there’s a great the Harvard.00;49;59;14 – 00;50;03;09
Speaker 2
Study, which recently came out with speed going for a 70.00;50;03;09 – 00;50;06;17
Speaker 3
75 year I think it is a dev.00;50;06;17 – 00;50;26;04
Speaker 2
Recently showed that just by sitting down and chatting to someone on a regular basis that you actually trust face to face, it can actually increase your lifespan by 10 to 15 years, which is amazing, right? Just by sitting down and chatting to someone on regular basis can do that and also decreases the likelihood of you having other neurodegenerative diseases.00;50;26;04 – 00;50;26;19
Speaker 2
And so.00;50;26;24 – 00;50;27;19
Speaker 3
We need to be.00;50;27;19 – 00;50;54;05
Speaker 2
Actually spending more time sitting down and chatting with people and not being online because it’s not the same as actually sitting down. Now, as we talked about earlier, that our brains have evolved to actually be sitting down with people. And that’s how we we used to sit down. We used to spend yeah, we used to actually spend most of that time sitting around campfires and actually chatting to people we loved and learning from each other.00;50;54;05 – 00;51;02;20
Speaker 2
And that’s what we’ve actually got to be doing because that’s actually what, what brings us joy. And so we need to be doing that more often and we all need to actually do that.00;51;02;20 – 00;51;03;23
Speaker 3
But the problem with the.00;51;03;23 – 00;51;15;05
Speaker 2
Brain is was not a problem, but the issue is that our brains are plastic. Our brains are constantly changing because of a thing called neuroplasticity. And we now.00;51;15;05 – 00;51;18;06
Speaker 3
Know, whereas we used to think that we.00;51;18;06 – 00;51;24;24
Speaker 2
Went through these different stages, which Piaget came out with as we were growing up. And then once we got to about 25.00;51;25;00 – 00;51;25;05
Speaker 3
Our.00;51;25;05 – 00;51;30;09
Speaker 2
Brains were set and then we basically just deteriorated after that, which is pretty sad. Why I think that what.00;51;30;16 – 00;51;30;23
Speaker 3
We.00;51;30;23 – 00;51;34;27
Speaker 2
Now know that’s not true, that Piaget was wrong and there aren’t any of these critical stages.00;51;35;04 – 00;51;35;20
Speaker 3
But rather.00;51;35;20 – 00;51;39;13
Speaker 2
Our brains are constantly changing. So your brain is going to be different today.00;51;39;16 – 00;51;39;21
Speaker 3
Than.00;51;39;21 – 00;51;41;23
Speaker 2
It was yesterday, and it will be different again tomorrow.00;51;41;23 – 00;51;46;03
Speaker 3
Depending on what you do and what you don’t do. But let’s use it or lose it paradigm. So if you’re using in.00;51;46;04 – 00;51;50;12
Speaker 2
Positive ways, it gets healthy and it’s usually in ways it gets less healthy.00;51;50;19 – 00;51;57;03
Speaker 3
But it also means that it’s adapting to your environment all the time. So if you’re spending less time with people, then you’re going to feel.00;51;57;03 – 00;51;58;20
Speaker 2
Like spending less time with people.00;51;58;20 – 00;52;00;16
Speaker 3
And you’re not going to have the ability.00;52;00;19 – 00;52;01;24
Speaker 2
Or the.00;52;01;26 – 00;52;02;11
Speaker 3
Drive.00;52;02;11 – 00;52;10;06
Speaker 2
To actually spend time with people. So then you’ll spend less time with people, which means that your brain’s going to adapt to that and get used to that, which means you’re going to spend less time inside.00;52;10;13 – 00;52;11;11
Speaker 3
And you can see what happens.00;52;11;11 – 00;52;12;12
Speaker 2
But it’s.00;52;12;14 – 00;52;13;15
Speaker 1
Just a cycle.00;52;13;17 – 00;52;17;19
Speaker 3
And it’s become even worse because of COVID, because everyone got scared of everyone.00;52;17;26 – 00;52;24;29
Speaker 2
Because we’re all going to infect each other. Sorry, I said the word again that since the epidemic.00;52;25;02 – 00;52;28;02
Speaker 1
I’m going I’m going to bleep that out. My suit’s the.00;52;28;02 – 00;52;29;14
Speaker 3
C-word.00;52;29;17 – 00;52;33;10
Speaker 1
That it’s going to sound like something worse.00;52;33;13 – 00;52;40;04
Speaker 3
It’s the C-word when we’re all told to stay away from each other, don’t touch each other. Which means we weren’t getting.00;52;40;04 – 00;52;43;03
Speaker 2
The oxytocin that we like because we weren’t touching nature, that.00;52;43;06 – 00;52;45;01
Speaker 3
We we couldn’t see each other’s faces because we.00;52;45;01 – 00;52;49;12
Speaker 2
Had masks on, which was really, really bad. And actually there was a.00;52;49;14 – 00;52;52;03
Speaker 3
Hospital in the UK showed that patients.00;52;52;03 – 00;52;53;12
Speaker 2
Weren’t getting as.00;52;53;18 – 00;52;54;03
Speaker 3
Well.00;52;54;03 – 00;52;54;22
Speaker 2
And were.00;52;54;23 – 00;52;57;16
Speaker 3
More likely to spend longer in hospital when.00;52;57;19 – 00;53;00;25
Speaker 2
All of their carers were wearing the face masks. And I actually put.00;53;00;25 – 00;53;02;02
Speaker 3
With those clear.00;53;02;04 – 00;53;07;02
Speaker 2
Face masks which had a clear section here so you could actually see the faces and you could actually say great smile and stuff.00;53;07;10 – 00;53;08;05
Speaker 3
So it’s really, really.00;53;08;05 – 00;53;10;18
Speaker 2
Important that we actually do that social interaction.00;53;10;26 – 00;53;13;18
Speaker 3
And being lonely actually kills us.00;53;13;20 – 00;53;15;25
Speaker 2
Being lonely can cause psychosis. I mean, this.00;53;15;25 – 00;53;22;06
Speaker 3
Is why we have why most countries now have banned.00;53;22;06 – 00;53;24;20
Speaker 2
Solitary confinement from from.00;53;24;20 – 00;53;28;12
Speaker 3
Jails. Right. Because it is really, really horrendous thing to do to someone.00;53;28;13 – 00;53;34;09
Speaker 2
To actually put them in solitary confinement. And solitary confinement is just another version of being lonely.00;53;34;09 – 00;53;34;14
Speaker 3
Right.00;53;34;16 – 00;53;36;01
Speaker 2
You actually don’t have people around you.00;53;36;07 – 00;53;37;08
Speaker 3
And we need to realize how.00;53;37;08 – 00;53;39;08
Speaker 2
Bad it actually is for people.00;53;39;11 – 00;53;40;27
Speaker 3
And we need people to be.00;53;40;27 – 00;53;41;26
Speaker 2
Interacting with each other.00;53;42;01 – 00;53;44;17
Speaker 3
And I find it crazy. I work with.00;53;44;20 – 00;53;48;07
Speaker 2
An organization which does digital detox with Swiss.00;53;48;10 – 00;53;50;19
Speaker 3
Kids where they take them out.00;53;50;19 – 00;53;53;16
Speaker 2
On a camp for two weeks and I have psychologist work.00;53;53;19 – 00;53;57;17
Speaker 3
And this is they these are kids who have spent two, three years.00;53;57;17 – 00;54;00;04
Speaker 2
In their bedrooms actually having left their bedroom.00;54;00;04 – 00;54;14;13
Speaker 3
And I find it ironic because when I was a kid, your parents sending you to the bedroom was the worst thing they could have done to you. I mean, it was like number one punishment, right? You got it. You’re grounded and you’ve got to stay in your bedroom.00;54;14;13 – 00;54;15;16
Speaker 2
For the next.00;54;15;19 – 00;54;28;09
Speaker 3
Two days. Whereas now all these parents come to me deciding I can’t get my kid to leave their bedroom. I just assume sleep in. And when we need to.00;54;28;09 – 00;54;29;23
Speaker 2
Do something about that, kids need to be.00;54;29;23 – 00;54;32;29
Speaker 3
Out there. Yeah, interacting.00;54;32;29 – 00;54;33;15
Speaker 2
With each other.00;54;33;15 – 00;54;45;08
Speaker 3
And it really frustrates me because schools are promoting this in schools both here and in the US, introducing more and more devices into schools. And it’s not just the smartphones, it’s also the laptops.00;54;45;08 – 00;54;45;20
Speaker 2
And all these.00;54;45;20 – 00;54;53;01
Speaker 3
Other things in the schools. And we know that learning on a screen is actually a poorer for retention and.00;54;53;03 – 00;54;53;24
Speaker 2
For.00;54;53;26 – 00;54;57;18
Speaker 3
Outcomes than a learning on paper. Yeah, learning on a screen.00;54;57;18 – 00;54;59;28
Speaker 2
Is more stressful than learning on paper.00;55;00;05 – 00;55;01;07
Speaker 3
You remember less.00;55;01;07 – 00;55;03;19
Speaker 2
When you’re actually things on a screen than when you learn.00;55;03;19 – 00;55;04;23
Speaker 3
On paper.00;55;04;25 – 00;55;06;14
Speaker 2
Typing is actually worse for.00;55;06;14 – 00;55;14;28
Speaker 3
Comprehension than actually writing. With pen and paper, we need to be getting rid of the devices from the schools because it makes it. It also makes it difficult for.00;55;14;28 – 00;55;15;16
Speaker 2
Parents, right.00;55;15;16 – 00;55;21;28
Speaker 3
Because the schools are saying kids have to have a laptop and I have to come to school with laptops and then I have to do all the homework on the.00;55;21;28 – 00;55;23;19
Speaker 2
Laptops or on the computers.00;55;23;22 – 00;55;26;02
Speaker 3
And then the parents are gone. But hang on, we want the kids to be.00;55;26;02 – 00;55;26;26
Speaker 2
Out.00;55;26;29 – 00;55;58;11
Speaker 3
Doing stuff. And we need to realize that 21st century skills that kids are actually needing to develop are around communication, around leadership, are around being able to work within a group collaboration. These are the 21st century skills that kids are actually going to need. I know a company I was talking to a company just the other day, which is formed and they’re making huge amounts of money because they’re actually teaching new grads how to talk on the phone.00;55;58;13 – 00;56;14;02
Speaker 3
And all these companies actually hire this company to teach graduates how to talk on a fire because they don’t know how to talk on the phone when they when they get a job. But they all of a sudden have to talk on a phone. I mean, these are skills we should feel. And when we’re teenagers.00;56;14;03 – 00;56;14;14
Speaker 2
Or when.00;56;14;14 – 00;56;18;18
Speaker 3
We’re kids and we end up leading them and now. Yeah, well, well, good luck to this.00;56;18;18 – 00;56;20;00
Speaker 2
Company because it’s doing extremely.00;56;20;00 – 00;56;24;08
Speaker 3
Well. But surely schools need to be teaching kids what they actually.00;56;24;08 – 00;56;26;17
Speaker 2
Need and what’s actually needed.00;56;26;24 – 00;56;32;00
Speaker 3
For them rather than be doing things which we know detrimental to.00;56;32;03 – 00;56;37;00
Speaker 2
Learning and detrimental to social communication, detrimental to the 21st century.00;56;37;00 – 00;56;38;00
Speaker 3
Skills that they should.00;56;38;00 – 00;56;39;29
Speaker 2
Actually be learning and we need to.00;56;39;29 – 00;56;40;17
Speaker 3
Really think about.00;56;40;17 – 00;57;13;22
Speaker 1
Right. I mean, let me play devil’s advocate for just one second. So if I would I would agree with most of that. But I think there’s a counter argument that would be that, you know what, if their work is largely done, you know, in the cloud, what if their work is largely done virtually? You know, I have an 11 year old son that loves playing Minecraft and I could see him, you know, meeting with people in that space.00;57;13;22 – 00;57;20;14
Speaker 1
I mean, do you is there is there a case to be made for for learning those skills?00;57;20;16 – 00;57;25;06
Speaker 3
The problem is we don’t have to let you say you’ve got a 12 year old son who does.00;57;25;13 – 00;57;26;04
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;57;26;07 – 00;57;31;23
Speaker 3
Who does it for fun. Right. So we don’t need to be spending 6 hours a day in school learning.00;57;31;23 – 00;57;34;13
Speaker 2
Something that they learn themselves.00;57;34;15 – 00;57;55;13
Speaker 3
The reason that these these technologies can often become ubiquitous is that they’re really, really simple and they’re very intuitive. So you don’t need to learn how to use. I mean, I haven’t met a seven year old who can’t use an iPad, right? That they have they do it automatically and without even thinking about it, to be spending 13 years.00;57;55;13 – 00;57;57;07
Speaker 2
Of school life.00;57;57;09 – 00;58;06;05
Speaker 3
Learning, how to use something that we learn anyway and we learn easily, right? I mean, my mind, my mother’s got Alzheimer’s and I taught her how to use.00;58;06;05 – 00;58;16;26
Speaker 2
A laptop in about an hour. She didn’t need 30 years of schooling to learn how to use the laptop and be able to send emails and all the rest of it. And she has a neurodegenerative disease as well.00;58;17;02 – 00;58;20;15
Speaker 3
So yeah, we don’t need to be doing that right. What we need to be doing.00;58;20;15 – 00;58;21;26
Speaker 2
Is teaching them skills that they’re not.00;58;21;26 – 00;58;24;24
Speaker 3
Learning at home and that they’re not learning.00;58;24;27 – 00;58;35;13
Speaker 2
In school schools. That’s what school used to be about. They used to be teaching kids stuff that you wouldn’t write at home or that your parents couldn’t you? But I think any parent can teach kids how to turn on a laptop or.00;58;35;19 – 00;58;36;02
Speaker 3
Any kid.00;58;36;02 – 00;58;41;09
Speaker 2
Can actually learn themselves to use the cloud and so on because they are.00;58;41;14 – 00;58;41;28
Speaker 3
Yeah.00;58;42;01 – 00;58;49;20
Speaker 1
It’s yeah, no, that’s it. That’s a fair point. Yeah, I’ve just heard that argument before. But yeah.00;58;49;21 – 00;58;51;17
Speaker 3
The other one, I hear a lot of phones that I.00;58;51;17 – 00;58;59;20
Speaker 2
Now have access to and that’s kids now have access to the world via the laptops which they didn’t have before, which again is, is, is actually wrong.00;58;59;20 – 00;59;02;20
Speaker 3
Because being on a laptop.00;59;02;20 – 00;59;05;21
Speaker 2
If you’re searching on Google or you’re searching on.00;59;05;23 – 00;59;07;24
Speaker 3
Any of these platforms, there’s algorithms.00;59;07;24 – 00;59;23;25
Speaker 2
On in the background that are actually biasing the information that you actually get. So it’s actually been shown that we have all access to less information when we actually search things on the Internet than we did than we do if we actually go to a library and look it up. So because if you’ve got a library looking up, you only get the information that you’re actually looking for.00;59;24;02 – 00;59;28;14
Speaker 2
Whereas if you do it on Google, you actually get biased towards the stuff that is actually.00;59;28;21 – 00;59;29;14
Speaker 3
What they think.00;59;29;14 – 00;59;30;10
Speaker 2
That you actually want to be.00;59;30;10 – 00;59;30;22
Speaker 3
Ready.00;59;30;22 – 00;59;38;12
Speaker 2
So we don’t actually have access to the world. We have access to the information that the tech companies want to actually see us.00;59;38;14 – 01;00;01;00
Speaker 1
So maybe just to wrap up, we talked a little bit about we talked about some of the negative effects of groups, but, you know, this kind of in group outgroup mentality. But there are also positive effects of groups.01;00;01;00 – 01;00;03;14
Speaker 2
Absolute.01;00;03;17 – 01;00;29;21
Speaker 1
Which we just talked about, like actually meeting with people in life, in real life, not chat rooms or, you know, social media. So so like, I guess I see a little bit of a contradiction in the fact that we sort of need groups. But by virtue of of being in a group, we’re excluding other people from that group.01;00;29;23 – 01;00;58;29
Speaker 1
So I’ll just give you an example from from my life. So I have a and well, it is an online group, but it’s particularly for people who produce science and natural history media. Well, I don’t just let anyone into that group. I only let people into the into that group. I’m on LinkedIn and Facebook that are actually working in that field because it’s it’s the goal of the group is to network and we don’t want a bunch of people coming in and trying to sell stuff that you know but who knows what would happen.01;00;58;29 – 01;01;25;05
Speaker 1
But so, you know, I’m excluding people from that group. So, I mean, how do you how do we balance that? And I’ll throw in a third a bonus just to make it a little harder for you. I mean, one thing that you’re advocating in the book is that we need to be more and more inclusive, which I which I would agree with.01;01;25;08 – 01;01;58;20
Speaker 1
But we also have people with very different values. You know, there’s different I don’t know if you’re familiar with this concept, the spiral dynamics. Claire Graves work on values and you know that we we tend to we tend to as we progress and it sort of relates to developmental stages that we become more inclusive that we have. We can take more perspectives of different people, but not everybody’s operating at those same levels, right?01;01;58;22 – 01;02;08;23
Speaker 1
And we value different things. So like, is it really feasible that we can really have groups that are so inclusive that they include everyone?01;02;08;25 – 01;02;14;15
Speaker 3
Yeah. To take great questions, I’ll tackle the first one first.01;02;14;17 – 01;02;22;01
Speaker 2
But they’re the big question. So I think with the first one, which is what you are, I think asking is is.01;02;22;04 – 01;02;23;19
Speaker 3
How do we.01;02;23;21 – 01;02;31;05
Speaker 2
Is it okay to have exclusive groups and when is that okay? Because we do need exclusive.01;02;31;05 – 01;02;31;23
Speaker 3
Groups.01;02;31;26 – 01;02;36;03
Speaker 2
When we have specialization. I talked about that earlier that.01;02;36;05 – 01;02;37;15
Speaker 3
One of our big leaps forwards.01;02;37;15 – 01;02;43;22
Speaker 2
Was starting to specialize and starting to have small groups which weren’t specific to a specific task. And I.01;02;43;22 – 01;02;46;24
Speaker 3
Think what you need to think about is, is why is.01;02;46;24 – 01;02;49;08
Speaker 2
It that you’re excluding somebody else? And if.01;02;49;08 – 01;02;50;16
Speaker 3
You’re excluding somebody.01;02;50;16 – 01;02;52;23
Speaker 2
Else.01;02;52;25 – 01;02;55;26
Speaker 3
With good reason. And I think your your example.01;02;55;26 – 01;02;57;07
Speaker 2
Was a great reason for that, right?01;02;57;07 – 01;02;58;20
Speaker 3
It’s we want.01;02;58;20 – 01;03;00;19
Speaker 2
This to be about this one topic.01;03;00;24 – 01;03;02;09
Speaker 3
And anybody who’s interested.01;03;02;09 – 01;03;05;17
Speaker 2
In that topic and has experience in that topic is actually welcome.01;03;05;19 – 01;03;07;25
Speaker 3
So in a way, you know, yeah, absolutely.01;03;07;26 – 01;03;11;00
Speaker 2
Yeah. Anybody who’s actually interested in that topic.01;03;11;00 – 01;03;12;29
Speaker 3
You’re just excluding people who.01;03;12;29 – 01;03;16;15
Speaker 2
Aren’t on join for the right reason.01;03;16;17 – 01;03;18;28
Speaker 3
So and I don’t think I think that’s what.01;03;18;28 – 01;03;19;23
Speaker 2
We need to think about.01;03;19;23 – 01;03;27;27
Speaker 3
Well, why are we excluding people so rather than what’s the criteria to be a member, but rather what.01;03;27;27 – 01;03;32;06
Speaker 2
What’s the criteria for not being a member? Why? Why we’re excluding this? And if.01;03;32;09 – 01;03;33;10
Speaker 3
For good reasons.01;03;33;10 – 01;03;36;12
Speaker 2
It’s the exclusion is good reasons, then that’s fine.01;03;36;14 – 01;03;37;06
Speaker 3
It’s when it’s.01;03;37;06 – 01;03;45;11
Speaker 2
Not for good reasons that it’s not. If it’s if it’s because of the fact that it’s we are who want white people being part of this group.01;03;45;11 – 01;03;45;23
Speaker 3
Then that’s.01;03;45;23 – 01;03;47;13
Speaker 2
Not appropriate. Right. Okay.01;03;47;15 – 01;04;00;13
Speaker 3
Now we are in a particular group or whatever. So I think that’s that’s when those groups become nefarious. And I think most of us have a very I think if we think about.01;04;00;13 – 01;04;10;10
Speaker 2
It, most of us realize when when we’re creating a group which isn’t nice, which isn’t appropriate, and we shouldn’t be creating that group and we should be dismantling that group.01;04;10;12 – 01;04;12;15
Speaker 3
Yeah. So and we do need the groups because the.01;04;12;15 – 01;04;15;21
Speaker 2
Groups are really important.01;04;15;23 – 01;04;24;20
Speaker 3
The idea of different values, I don’t think we actually do have different values. I think the fact that we are separate and I talk.01;04;24;20 – 01;04;27;12
Speaker 2
To each other means that we don’t have different values.01;04;27;15 – 01;04;34;27
Speaker 3
I think we all have you know, we all want to be safe. We all want to have food.01;04;35;00 – 01;04;38;28
Speaker 2
We all want our families to be protected. We all want. Yeah.01;04;39;00 – 01;04;40;03
Speaker 3
To have the opportunity.01;04;40;03 – 01;04;42;26
Speaker 2
And and everybody else to have the opportunity.01;04;43;03 – 01;04;45;02
Speaker 3
To thrive. And so I think we.01;04;45;02 – 01;04;46;23
Speaker 2
All have those same values.01;04;46;23 – 01;05;05;11
Speaker 3
And I travel, I’ve traveled a lot and I’ve found that no matter where you travel, that people tend to always have those important values. I think there are, and I’ve been actually, you know, writing.01;05;05;12 – 01;05;07;23
Speaker 2
Another book at the moment with a friend who.01;05;07;28 – 01;05;09;09
Speaker 3
Has had an amazing.01;05;09;11 – 01;05;11;27
Speaker 2
Life.01;05;11;29 – 01;05;19;02
Speaker 3
And he we’ve been talking about the fact that we’ve lost a lot.01;05;19;03 – 01;05;23;13
Speaker 2
Of.01;05;23;16 – 01;05;27;16
Speaker 3
Well, we no longer teach kids appropriate behavior.01;05;27;16 – 01;05;31;09
Speaker 2
And I think that’s what we’re losing. I don’t think it’s the values that we’re losing.01;05;31;11 – 01;05;32;02
Speaker 3
I think it’s how.01;05;32;02 – 01;05;33;10
Speaker 2
To actually act in an.01;05;33;10 – 01;05;40;05
Speaker 3
Appropriate what I remember the other day, I was on a tram with my.01;05;40;05 – 01;05;42;03
Speaker 2
Teenage kids and.01;05;42;06 – 01;05;57;12
Speaker 3
The tram was empty. And so we were all sitting down and then the tram got full and one of the stops, a lot of people got on. There was it was on the weekend and there were several older people got on who, you know, had trouble walking. And so I automatically stood up and my kids also stood up so they could actually sit down.01;05;57;18 – 01;06;10;24
Speaker 3
But as soon as we sat stood up, two teenagers sat down on our side and with the headphones on and put their ah, their feet up on the other seat straight away.01;06;10;24 – 01;06;14;27
Speaker 2
And I said to them height, you know, the deliver.01;06;15;03 – 01;06;38;28
Speaker 3
And then they actually then stood up and were very apologetic about what they’d done and let the elderly older people sit down. And it was only because they’d never been taught that that’s the appropriate way to act. And so I don’t think we’re losing. And I, I get the idea that, well, you know, different people have different values, but I don’t really think people I think we all have the same values.01;06;39;01 – 01;06;44;05
Speaker 3
It’s the behaviors that go behind this that we’re losing. And I think we need to teach.01;06;44;05 – 01;06;48;01
Speaker 2
The next generation what is the right way to buy height.01;06;48;03 – 01;06;50;27
Speaker 3
And appropriate ways to behave. And you can talk about.01;06;50;27 – 01;06;53;27
Speaker 2
That in relation to yeah, if you talk about like etiquette.01;06;53;27 – 01;06;56;26
Speaker 3
Or something like that. But I think that’s what we’re.01;06;56;29 – 01;06;57;29
Speaker 2
Losing.01;06;58;01 – 01;07;08;05
Speaker 3
Now and I don’t think we’re losing that because we’re getting larger groups or we’re getting different people involved. I think we’re losing that because that.01;07;08;05 – 01;07;18;04
Speaker 2
Parenting and how we parent now has changed. And so we’re not teaching younger generations those appropriate ways to behind.01;07;18;07 – 01;07;19;14
Speaker 3
Etiquette, if you like, if you.01;07;19;14 – 01;07;28;17
Speaker 2
Want to use an old fashioned time right at what’s actually appropriate, what’s not appropriate. And I think that’s what’s what’s missing. But I think we all have the same values.01;07;28;20 – 01;08;03;02
Speaker 1
I mean, I’m thinking in particular about. So are you familiar with Claire Graves Spiral Dynamics stuff? Yeah. It’s okay. Well, yeah. So just for for people listening, it’s the idea that there is, you know, people go through these stages. So there’s the ones that I’m thinking of in particular are like, you know, mythical sort of values and it really values and worldviews, the rational and then, you know, kind of post rational postmodern.01;08;03;08 – 01;08;37;00
Speaker 1
And it seems like that’s where a lot of our political fallout is. And for example, you know, I’m not I’d say I’m probably somewhere in the rational, you know, sort of post rational space as as as most people, you know, kind of intellectual people are at this stage. But like, I find it sometimes hard to relate to people, for example, that are very religious because they’re that’s that’s from it feels like it’s from a different time, you know, and those values are a bit different.01;08;37;03 – 01;08;50;16
Speaker 1
So that’s the kind of thing that I’m thinking of. So they would form a group and I would form a group, but the group, the whole reason the group pleases me, it would be a completely different because we have different values and different worldviews. Does that make sense?01;08;50;16 – 01;08;53;16
Speaker 3
Yeah, No, it does. And I completely I understand.01;08;53;22 – 01;08;55;03
Speaker 2
I appreciate that.01;08;55;03 – 01;09;04;10
Speaker 3
And I think that those groups are fine. Yeah. Belief systems. I think it’s fine to have different belief systems.01;09;04;10 – 01;09;07;03
Speaker 2
And therefore be part of different groups as long as.01;09;07;05 – 01;09;07;25
Speaker 3
You don’t.01;09;07;25 – 01;09;14;26
Speaker 2
Discriminate against the other group because of that. Right. And I think that’s weird. Yeah, things break down. So Erez.01;09;14;26 – 01;09;18;07
Speaker 3
We’re talking before groups are really important and groups give.01;09;18;07 – 01;09;34;12
Speaker 2
Us to belong to everybody. Give us someone, say our group of people that we trust, the group of people that we can rely on. And they’re really good for, you know, socialization and all these things. So that’s fine. And of course I teach, it’s different by Jews and so on that I was talking about. And it’s.01;09;34;12 – 01;09;36;04
Speaker 3
Just as long as one group.01;09;36;04 – 01;09;38;03
Speaker 2
Doesn’t discriminate against another group.01;09;38;03 – 01;09;39;15
Speaker 3
And that’s where we’re putting.01;09;39;15 – 01;09;42;24
Speaker 2
To a problem and that’s where we’re in a problem now, is that these groups have.01;09;42;24 – 01;09;44;08
Speaker 3
Become a.01;09;44;11 – 01;09;47;21
Speaker 2
Discriminated against other groups. And that’s not fair and that’s not appropriate.01;09;47;25 – 01;09;48;18
Speaker 3
Yeah, and that’s when.01;09;48;18 – 01;09;58;02
Speaker 2
I talk about to widen the circle. He said. It’s fine to be in smaller groups, but then we also need to think about what’s the we have this bigger group.01;09;58;05 – 01;09;58;24
Speaker 3
Which is.01;09;58;28 – 01;10;12;09
Speaker 2
Humanity, which we all have the same values, our ability, which is that we want to be safe and we want to be protected and we want and I have some kids who are looked after and have health care and all these things.01;10;12;12 – 01;10;17;00
Speaker 3
And so therefore, any of the groups that we’re a member of.01;10;17;02 – 01;10;21;07
Speaker 2
Shouldn’t be discriminating against those values.01;10;21;10 – 01;10;23;15
Speaker 1
Gotcha. Yeah, those are.01;10;23;15 – 01;10;24;20
Speaker 3
Common. Common right.01;10;24;21 – 01;10;26;20
Speaker 1
Common human values, as it were.01;10;26;20 – 01;10;30;05
Speaker 3
Yeah. Or should be anyway.01;10;30;07 – 01;10;57;18
Speaker 1
Yeah. Do you work for a science or technology focused organization? And we like to create video content but don’t know where to start. Well, my company, Frog Media, the publisher of this podcast, can help you. We are a one stop shop that can provide content, strategy, video production, and even social media management. Our previous clients include educational institutions, academic publishers, trade organizations and aerospace companies.01;10;57;20 – 01;11;24;22
Speaker 1
These are innovative, world changing organizations, and we’re leading humanity toward a brighter future. Learn more flow CYBERCOM or look for the link and the description below. There’s an interesting story about this gentleman named and I don’t know if you’re familiar with him, but his name is Daryl Davis. He’s a black gentleman and he and actually this speaks to what you’re talking about as well.01;11;24;24 – 01;11;33;16
Speaker 1
And he took it upon himself to kind of infiltrate the Klu Klux Klan in the US. And are you familiar with this story?01;11;33;16 – 01;11;34;16
Speaker 3
No, not at all.01;11;34;17 – 01;11;35;10
Speaker 2
Fess up.01;11;35;13 – 01;12;02;24
Speaker 1
Okay. Yeah. Interesting guy. And he he actually has I, I don’t know exactly how he did it, but he, he sort of became friends with some of these people in the Ku Klux Klan. And just through their conversation, was actually able to convert them to leave the Klan and realize that they were wrong. So I just think that’s I think that’s an inspiring story.01;12;02;24 – 01;12;41;01
Speaker 1
But, I mean, this is a case where, okay, here’s a very extreme group and here’s a gentleman who’s black is, you know, the target of their ire. And he was able to infiltrate and just through conversation, was able to, you know, get Klu Klux Klan members to leave. So anyways, I was thinking about that and, you know, is there a way that we can bridge the divide between different groups, you know, if they do have somewhat different values, I don’t know what I don’t know what this gentleman talked to them about, but there’s and it’s amazing.01;12;41;01 – 01;12;41;28
Speaker 1
I haven’t dug that deep.01;12;41;28 – 01;12;44;20
Speaker 2
I’m going to have to look that one up and.01;12;44;22 – 01;12;49;25
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s really hard because you need to be part of the group.01;12;49;27 – 01;12;51;28
Speaker 2
To influence the group.01;12;52;01 – 01;12;58;24
Speaker 3
And so, you know, to have to have that.01;12;58;25 – 01;13;03;15
Speaker 2
But I’m trying to not be political, so I’m trying to think of a group that isn’t political.01;13;03;20 – 01;13;06;26
Speaker 3
Well, I mean, yeah, you go ahead.01;13;06;28 – 01;13;08;08
Speaker 1
Go ahead, be political.01;13;08;10 – 01;13;12;02
Speaker 3
Okay. So it can be someone.01;13;12;02 – 01;13;15;13
Speaker 2
Who’s a.01;13;15;15 – 01;13;16;25
Speaker 3
A member of.01;13;16;27 – 01;13;21;00
Speaker 2
MAGA or a man MAGA and like James.01;13;21;02 – 01;13;22;05
Speaker 1
The Trump supporter.01;13;22;05 – 01;13;23;12
Speaker 2
Trump supporters. Yeah.01;13;23;18 – 01;13;26;14
Speaker 3
To convince someone within that group you can’t be a Democrat.01;13;26;14 – 01;13;30;12
Speaker 2
And then turn around and talk to a group of Trump supporters.01;13;30;15 – 01;13;31;10
Speaker 3
Because they’re not going.01;13;31;10 – 01;13;33;06
Speaker 2
To listen. They’re going to hear it differently. And we.01;13;33;06 – 01;13;38;05
Speaker 3
Know that we actually hear people differently if they’re part of our group dress is not.01;13;38;05 – 01;13;38;28
Speaker 2
Part of that group.01;13;38;28 – 01;13;40;24
Speaker 3
So we hear the positive.01;13;40;24 – 01;13;45;16
Speaker 2
Things they say. And if they’re part of that group and we knew that negative things, if they’re not part of that group.01;13;45;16 – 01;13;54;18
Speaker 3
Sites to people listening to Trump speak will if they’re from different persuasions, then they’re going to hear.01;13;54;18 – 01;13;57;11
Speaker 2
What he’s actually saying differently.01;13;57;14 – 01;14;00;14
Speaker 3
So you can’t change a group’s.01;14;00;14 – 01;14;05;21
Speaker 2
View unless you’re actually part of it. And that’s obviously what this individual did, which is quite amazing and actually got.01;14;05;23 – 01;14;07;28
Speaker 3
Became part of the group and then.01;14;07;28 – 01;14;09;17
Speaker 2
Started actually talking to them.01;14;09;17 – 01;14;22;26
Speaker 3
So yeah, if we want to, yeah, I mean group to change, we need to get people who are within that men’s.01;14;22;26 – 01;14;34;10
Speaker 2
Group to understand that they need to change and then for them to try and change it. There’s no point in a well when speaking to a men’s group about, you know, how this is discriminatory and all the rest of it. And that’s.01;14;34;10 – 01;14;34;28
Speaker 3
Why most.01;14;34;28 – 01;14;39;25
Speaker 2
Of these things, especially from political party, never actually work because you’ve got got.01;14;39;27 – 01;14;42;07
Speaker 3
A white male president trying.01;14;42;07 – 01;14;43;11
Speaker 2
To, you know, convince.01;14;43;11 – 01;14;43;23
Speaker 3
People.01;14;43;23 – 01;14;46;13
Speaker 2
That he’s going to solve.01;14;46;16 – 01;14;47;21
Speaker 3
The.01;14;47;24 – 01;15;00;11
Speaker 2
Issues in black neighborhoods or he’s going to you know, so issues with gender discrimination is going to celebrate, Right? It’s never actually gone. Nobody’s actually going to take that seriously because. He’s not part of those those groups.01;15;00;11 – 01;15;02;13
Speaker 3
And so we need to get individuals who are part of.01;15;02;13 – 01;15;06;14
Speaker 2
Those groups to actually then be willing to influence those groups. And I.01;15;06;14 – 01;15;08;03
Speaker 3
Remember someone.01;15;08;05 – 01;15;11;05
Speaker 2
Had someone speak to me and say, you know.01;15;11;07 – 01;15;11;13
Speaker 3
What?01;15;11;13 – 01;15;17;20
Speaker 2
Right do you have to talk about racism? And you’re a white male and you probably haven’t experienced racism. And it’s like.01;15;17;25 – 01;15;20;11
Speaker 3
Because it’s mainly white males who.01;15;20;13 – 01;15;28;28
Speaker 2
In Western countries who are racist. Right. And so therefore, I can actually change that. Yeah. A black woman, he’s not going to be able to say.01;15;29;00 – 01;15;31;16
Speaker 3
All right, racism, you need white.01;15;31;16 – 01;15;36;13
Speaker 2
Males willing to stand up and say, we’ve got to actually stop treating people like this and say.01;15;36;19 – 01;15;37;21
Speaker 3
Yeah, we need people within.01;15;37;21 – 01;15;49;09
Speaker 2
The groups actually willing to actually change the groups and willing to actually influence the people within them. Otherwise they’re not going to listen in the same way. You’re not going to get good side effect.01;15;49;11 – 01;15;50;05
Speaker 3
But that’s hot.01;15;50;08 – 01;15;50;29
Speaker 1
Yeah.01;15;51;01 – 01;15;53;09
Speaker 3
That’s really hot.01;15;53;11 – 01;16;17;13
Speaker 1
Yeah, I’ve I’ve thought about that too, just in terms of you know sort of the the left right political divide and you know, the left, the extreme left or extreme right, they’re not going to listen to the other side at all. So you kind of need the moderates in the middle to say, you know, that are that are kind of on the same side to be like, well, you’re you’re going we’re going too far here.01;16;17;13 – 01;16;36;27
Speaker 1
You need meaning, you know. And then the danger with like social media is like if you’re a moderate and then you say something, you know, you say, hey, we need to like slow down here. You know, this is this is too, too extreme. You get labeled as, well, you’re you’re the other side now. Yeah. You’re that you’re right or you’re left.01;16;36;27 – 01;17;00;21
Speaker 1
And so it’s another thing where it’s like people who are moderate moderating voices, let’s say, are not feel like they can’t speak because of this issue of social media where they’re just be shouted down and told they’re actually part of the other side and they’re not, you know, essentially that they’re not part of the group. You know, they’re actually in the other group and they’re like, well, I’m not look at my beliefs.01;17;00;21 – 01;17;02;06
Speaker 1
I’m not in that group, you know.01;17;02;08 – 01;17;05;18
Speaker 3
So yeah. And I think that’s another big problem with.01;17;05;20 – 01;17;12;11
Speaker 2
The the Internet at the moment is that the comments at the comment section. Right. We actually need to get rid of the comment section.01;17;12;11 – 01;17;13;03
Speaker 3
And these people.01;17;13;03 – 01;17;15;22
Speaker 2
Don’t actually have a right to have a say.01;17;15;24 – 01;17;19;24
Speaker 3
Yeah. If a journalist has spent six months investigating.01;17;19;24 – 01;17;21;04
Speaker 2
Something and they publish it.01;17;21;05 – 01;17;21;18
Speaker 3
It should be.01;17;21;18 – 01;17;28;06
Speaker 2
That should be it and that should be what they should be read. They Shouldn’t be our comment section based on a whole bunch of people.01;17;28;09 – 01;17;29;21
Speaker 3
Who we don’t even know.01;17;29;21 – 01;17;31;00
Speaker 2
Who they are.01;17;31;03 – 01;17;31;11
Speaker 3
All of.01;17;31;11 – 01;17;34;04
Speaker 2
A sudden saying, no, this person just white, this person that I’ve.01;17;34;10 – 01;17;37;13
Speaker 3
Always thought, which really does devalue.01;17;37;13 – 01;17;40;05
Speaker 2
All the work that these individuals put in.01;17;40;07 – 01;17;42;03
Speaker 3
And we really I, I mean, I was.01;17;42;03 – 01;17;48;03
Speaker 2
Disgusted recently, I’m must say if last time I mentioned earlier we actually had a big rescue here a couple of weekends.01;17;48;03 – 01;17;53;29
Speaker 3
Ago. I’m one of our patrol members. It’s amazing that she’s been she’s gone.01;17;53;29 – 01;17;59;05
Speaker 2
All the way through from the junior all the way through 2016. She had to jump out of the rescue boat to.01;17;59;10 – 01;18;03;06
Speaker 3
Swim across and climb onto some rocks and be quite rough.01;18;03;06 – 01;18;03;25
Speaker 2
Conditions.01;18;03;28 – 01;18;05;12
Speaker 3
Rescue Three teenage.01;18;05;12 – 01;18;08;11
Speaker 2
Boys are 17, 18. She’s only 16.01;18;08;14 – 01;18;11;29
Speaker 3
And she swam the back to the boat and I was over money. I mean, one of them had.01;18;11;29 – 01;18;16;12
Speaker 2
Concussion and is now not safe and.01;18;16;15 – 01;18;18;07
Speaker 3
Alive because of it. And the media.01;18;18;07 – 01;18;20;10
Speaker 2
Came and I had the choppers and I took over.01;18;20;13 – 01;18;37;12
Speaker 3
And she got interviewed several times. And then all these comments came up about, not all. Why wasn’t it a bloke or what are you doing sending the girl in to do this and that? She did it Amazing. And then there were started comments about what she looked like all. And it’s just like, Why do we have that? It just makes no sense.01;18;37;12 – 01;18;52;00
Speaker 3
That’s just not necessary. And and I think we really need to just delete those comments right? Why do we have comments now? But where did this come from and why do we have it? I don’t understand why. And it’s this idea that everyone deserves to.01;18;52;00 – 01;18;56;04
Speaker 2
Have a say. And I don’t think everyone does deserve to have a say because most people.01;18;56;06 – 01;19;02;00
Speaker 3
What they have to say isn’t very nice and is inappropriate. So let’s get rid of it.01;19;02;00 – 01;19;03;17
Speaker 2
Yeah Sorry.01;19;03;19 – 01;19;04;19
Speaker 1
And let me call.01;19;04;20 – 01;19;09;00
Speaker 2
Koresh on to say let’s get rid of the comment section.01;19;09;02 – 01;19;29;24
Speaker 1
Well, and not only that, but, you know, back to what we were talking about with with journalism, it’s also just being, you know, ignorant of the facts and, you know, coming with, you know, so like, everyone wants their say, but they’re not willing to actually dive in and and and find out what’s actually, you know, I mean, if you come with data, if you come with facts.01;19;29;24 – 01;19;41;26
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, so I think there’s value in that. But most people don’t, you know, they just they just have their own opinion or they just you know, I read some article and I’m going to hold that is that’s the truth, you know?01;19;41;27 – 01;19;46;25
Speaker 3
Yeah. And if you do have data and you do have facts, then write your own article.01;19;46;26 – 01;19;50;00
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, fair point. Yeah.01;19;50;00 – 01;19;50;17
Speaker 2
Actually, I.01;19;50;17 – 01;19;51;26
Speaker 1
Guess pretty much.01;19;51;27 – 01;19;56;15
Speaker 3
Worth it If I’m right here on how to go about doing that, then you don’t have a right to.01;19;56;15 – 01;19;58;08
Speaker 2
Comment. But so.01;19;58;11 – 01;20;01;21
Speaker 3
Yeah, you can still get rid of the.01;20;01;24 – 01;20;22;01
Speaker 1
Too much work. Yeah, too much work. It’s more, it’s much easier, you know, 3 a.m. to just fire off your opinion on something you know nothing about. Geoff Anyways, we just wrap it up. But if people would like to comment on this episode, go right ahead and tell. Tell them, Mark, what you really think of Down.01;20;22;04 – 01;20;28;21
Speaker 3
We go for it. Got it.01;20;28;24 – 01;20;45;19
Speaker 1
So anyways, Mark, it’s been a pleasure speaking with you. Enjoy your book. I’ve learned a lot. If people want to get the book, where can they find it and where can they find you online If they want to with you.01;20;45;22 – 01;20;51;28
Speaker 3
So that’s an American publisher. So any good bookstore should be able to get a hold of for you or.01;20;52;00 – 01;20;56;24
Speaker 2
All the online bookstores have it available. So you just go to wherever.01;20;56;26 – 01;20;59;18
Speaker 3
And if you want to check me out or sign up to my.01;20;59;18 – 01;21;08;11
Speaker 2
Newsletter, it’s just that. WW w Dr. Mark Williams Dotcom. So they are being so nice.01;21;08;13 – 01;21;15;17
Speaker 1
And I saw you had a like a free download for people who are dealing with video game addiction. Is it.01;21;15;25 – 01;21;18;19
Speaker 3
It’s just with addiction. So just any device.01;21;18;22 – 01;21;19;20
Speaker 2
Issues it’s mainly.01;21;19;20 – 01;21;20;03
Speaker 1
Because of my.01;21;20;03 – 01;21;25;28
Speaker 2
Science. Yeah. So there’s one there for kids, there’s one for teens and there’s one for adults. You can download one download.01;21;25;29 – 01;21;36;00
Speaker 1
That’s awesome. Yeah, that’s awesome. All right, cool. Mark. Well, thanks again and I’ll be curious to see what what’s your next books about.01;21;36;00 – 01;21;38;08
Speaker 2
Thanks a lot, Eric. Great talking to you.01;21;38;11 – 01;22;00;23
Speaker 1
Well, that’s it for this show. And as always, I hope you’ve learned as much as I did. If you enjoyed this episode, you should definitely check out our previous conversation with investigative journalist John Petron on Living in the Shadow of the Dark Cloud that is all about how our overuse of digital technology is actually harming the environment and not just our brains.01;22;00;25 – 01;22;12;08
Speaker 1
Science centric is a flow spark media production. Our producer for this episode was Alexander James. Guest booking was handled by Melissa David. Until next Time, I’m Eric Olson.