Bryn Nelson is a Seattle-based journalist who specializes in scientific, environmental, medical, and travel-related stories. His crappy new book is called “Flush: The Remarkable Science of an Unlikely Treasure” and it’s all about humanity’s relationship to our poop and how we can improve upon that…erm…relationship.
EPISODE LINKS
Flush: The Remarkable Science of an Unlikely Treasure (Affiliate Link) https://amzn.to/3CxsAB7
Follow Bryn on Twitter: https://twitter.com/seattlebryn
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(Note: The following transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.)
00;00;20;24 – 00;00;55;08
Speaker 1
Hey, guys, I’m Eric Olson, and welcome to another episode of Synapse on Science Centric Synapses. Our signature discussion series, where we engage in thought provoking conversations with scientists, journalists, authors and other thought leaders. Our guest in this episode is Brynn Nelson, a Seattle based journalist who specializes in scientific, environmental, medical and travel. Related stories. His crappy new book, and I mean that quite literally is called Flush The Remarkable Science of an Unlikely Treasure.00;00;55;18 – 00;01;21;22
Speaker 1
And it’s all about humanity’s relationship to our poop and how we can improve upon that relationship. But before we dove in, okay, maybe that’s a poor choice of words. A couple of quick reminders. The first thing is you can help keep this series going by liking this episode, subscribing to the channel and clicking on that little notification bell to be informed when new episodes go live.00;01;22;08 – 00;01;46;15
Speaker 1
Number two, if you like what we do here, you can help support us directly through Patreon. We have a number of benefits over there, including early access to new episodes, ad free episodes, and a monthly patrons only. Q&A with me where you can suggest new show topics or guests. Check out the YouTube description or visit science centric e-commerce support for more info.00;01;46;19 – 00;02;04;10
Speaker 1
Now, with that out of the way, let’s get the scoop on poop. So, Brin, welcome to the show. Awesome to have you as a guest. Awesome to have you as I think our second live guest. And we’re here. You’re at your home in Seattle. So thank you for for having us here.00;02;04;14 – 00;02;06;29
Speaker 2
Yeah. Thanks so much, Eric. I really appreciate.00;02;06;29 – 00;02;07;17
Speaker 1
It. Awesome.00;02;07;25 – 00;02;08;10
Speaker 2
Great to be here.00;02;09;02 – 00;02;24;13
Speaker 1
So my first question for you is why a book about poop? Like, how did you get interested in this topic? And then and then how did the how did the book come about?00;02;24;23 – 00;02;51;15
Speaker 2
Yeah. So my training is in microbiology. So I went to graduate school at the University of Washington here in Seattle. So I’ve always been interested in microbes. And as a science writer, a I did a feature story on fecal transplants for a publication called Mosaic, and that was back in 2014. And I kind of became obsessed with this topic.00;02;51;26 – 00;03;14;18
Speaker 2
You know, the feature story did pretty well. You know, I was hearing from patients and patient advocates that what was holding the therapy back wasn’t the know how, it was the disgust. And so a lot of them were forced to do these DIY treatments at home, you know, basically a fecal animal at home with, you know, things that you would get from the drugstore.00;03;15;13 – 00;03;44;04
Speaker 2
And it was shocking to me, but also just fascinating. How do you go from a folk remedy essentially that’s laughed at to something that’s in the mainstream of science and, you know, to the point where poop becomes a commodity and people are paid money to be donors. And, you know, there was just such a dichotomy there of something that was disgusting and people were laughing at it.00;03;44;04 – 00;04;08;26
Speaker 2
And the other hand, it was so wildly effective. And, you know, people were basically on their deathbed and were cured. So so that kind of got me started. I started then just basically any story that I could find that had to do with re-use and our relationship with our bodies. And and eventually it basically snowballed from there, so to speak.00;04;08;27 – 00;04;33;19
Speaker 2
Yeah, but it actually got me curious about what has value and that’s one of the central themes in the book is what has value. And the things that we assign value to is often very, very subjective and nature has different ideas of what really has value, right?00;04;34;03 – 00;05;02;03
Speaker 1
So it was that paradox between, you know, this disgust that people have and but the also usefulness of both of those things. And maybe, like you’re saying, the devaluing of of human excrement. Yeah. Whereas there’s, there’s, there’s actually a history there which, which we’ll get to. Yeah. About, you know, about how we can, can use it or use it and how people have used it in the past.00;05;02;09 – 00;05;26;12
Speaker 1
Right. So I guess my question is that I mean, even even reading your book, I actually, you know, I was like eating something and reading it at the same time. And I was like, okay, I got to stop reading this book because I’m getting like, I’m going to get a gross out by this. I can’t I can’t read this.00;05;26;12 – 00;05;39;03
Speaker 1
And eat at the same time. Like, I got to take a break. So there really is that sort of visceral disgust with what, poop. Right. Where does that come from? Why? Why do we have this visceral reaction?00;05;39;04 – 00;06;06;00
Speaker 2
Right. Yeah, there’s a there’s a really fascinating evolutionary history to disgust and, you know, it’s all, I guess, hypotheses. But but basically the idea that we are disgusted or most disgusted by things that we feel are most likely to harm us. And so there are different categories of disgust. They tend to be one is sort of like bodily secretions.00;06;06;00 – 00;06;24;05
Speaker 2
So it’s disgust of pathogens, pathogen disgust. So things like poop, pee, but also rats, cockroaches, you know, I happen to be, you know, horribly disgusted by cockroaches and other things, slimy things, people who look unwell.00;06;24;13 – 00;06;24;20
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;06;24;26 – 00;06;58;11
Speaker 2
You know, sweaty, greasy. So those are those are all kind of a category. There’s also sexual disgust. So, you know, disgust by different types of sexual practices and discussed by the thought of having sex with someone. Right. And then there’s also moral disgust. So things like lying, cheating, stealing things that we find abhorrent. And so there’s you know, there’s all kinds of hypotheses about about kind of how these have evolved.00;06;58;19 – 00;07;31;11
Speaker 2
But generally speaking, there’s this kind of baseline level of disgust, that kind of tells us to avoid things that could potentially be dangerous. So some researchers have likened it to like a behavioral immune system, right. So that we avoid things and that can kind of come across even in shorthand. You know, when I was growing up as a small kid, my parents had these green stickers and it was called Mr. Yuck.00;07;31;29 – 00;07;40;14
Speaker 2
And you would specifically put those on household cleaners or things like that. And it was kind of the grimace, you know, like the face of disgust.00;07;40;14 – 00;07;40;24
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;07;40;27 – 00;07;45;02
Speaker 2
But that was sort of the shorthand for this is yucky avoid it.00;07;45;05 – 00;07;45;15
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;07;45;16 – 00;08;04;29
Speaker 2
You know, and that was, you know, literally to protect kids from ingesting poison. Yeah. So that was that. So that’s one example of how it has perhaps evolved to protect us. You know, of course, then in excess, it can work the other way and and harm us as well.00;08;05;00 – 00;08;05;15
Speaker 1
Right.00;08;05;17 – 00;08;06;25
Speaker 2
So that’s another theme of the book.00;08;06;25 – 00;08;14;16
Speaker 1
So but it’s not unfounded that we have this discussion about excrement and don’t want to, you know, don’t want to be around it.00;08;14;16 – 00;08;23;11
Speaker 2
No and no. And in fact, you know, if you ask people around the world what disgust them most poop is is pretty high on the list everywhere.00;08;23;18 – 00;08;24;09
Speaker 1
Yeah. So this.00;08;24;09 – 00;08;25;22
Speaker 2
Is not it’s not it’s not.00;08;25;22 – 00;08;46;29
Speaker 1
Country specific. And that’s a pretty good clue that that, you know, it’s not just a cultural thing that it’s somewhat hardwired into us to have that level of disgust. And what is it that, you know, there’s certain smells, for example, what what’s in there that’s that’s cuing us in that this is something that.00;08;47;07 – 00;09;26;20
Speaker 2
Oh, gosh. Well, there’s a there’s a fascinating mix of of chemicals and and I think it’s surprising. So there they’re things that are pretty obvious, like purchasing a theater, seeing everyone, you know, kind of knows about, you know, things that smell putrid. There is indole, which is another chemical and some people describe it as smelling like mothballs. Some people describe this smelling like poop, but it actually can be used in small amounts, in perfumes and in ice cream and and other things.00;09;26;20 – 00;09;39;02
Speaker 2
Yeah. So and so there are these, all of these chemicals when you have a lot of it, it may smell one way. When you have just a little bit of it, it actually might be a perfume.00;09;39;17 – 00;09;40;07
Speaker 1
Interesting.00;09;40;19 – 00;09;43;15
Speaker 2
Jasmine, for example, has a little bit of indole.00;09;43;15 – 00;09;44;00
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;09;44;23 – 00;10;21;23
Speaker 2
So there are a number of different chemicals. And what’s kind of fascinating is that there’s actually been these big debates among scientists of like, what’s the true smell? And so they’ve actually done like all of these experiments and tried to like distill, like, what’s the essence of it? Which is kind of funny. But yeah, I mean, that is cuing us you know, smell be a huge trigger for disgust and so yeah, I mean, you immediately smell something, you know, that’s in the garbage or you know, you go by a public toilet that hasn’t been cleaned.00;10;21;23 – 00;10;23;23
Speaker 2
And I mean, you, you know, instantly.00;10;23;23 – 00;10;25;10
Speaker 1
That’s going to avoid the air.00;10;25;18 – 00;10;42;26
Speaker 2
So so the smell is huge. I mean, but it’s but it’s interesting because we’re still learning exactly what is it that we’re cuing into the mix of these chemicals? And how is that sort of triggering this emotion, this really intense emotion, disgust?00;10;42;26 – 00;11;01;02
Speaker 1
I wanted to back up just just a second. We’re talking about disgust with with crab. I don’t know if you can say shit on YouTube. I guess we’ll find out. But what what actually is poop?00;11;01;28 – 00;11;03;05
Speaker 2
Oh, good question.00;11;03;05 – 00;11;10;06
Speaker 1
So we so we have these chemicals coming out of it that that stink to us or disgust to us. But what actually is poop?00;11;10;06 – 00;11;40;08
Speaker 2
Yeah. So a good proportion of poop is actually microbes both living and dead. And, you know, there have been various experiments where they’ve tried to researchers have tried to come up with, you know, what’s the percentage? But typically it’s around 40 to 50% of the dry weight of poop is actually microbes. And why that’s interesting and useful is that is essentially a sample of your inner microbiome.00;11;40;11 – 00;11;40;24
Speaker 1
Okay.00;11;41;20 – 00;12;13;24
Speaker 2
So we have a tremendous diversity of microbes living inside of us, primarily bacteria, but also viruses, also archaea. Mm hmm. Sometimes fungi as well. And so I liken it to kind of like a rainforest in miniature, you know, because you have predators, you have prey. That’s really fascinating. And they’re all kind of living in this kind of coexistence and in this habitat that we’ve created for them know and doing some remarkable things.00;12;13;24 – 00;12;39;16
Speaker 2
So so it’s essentially a sample of what’s going on inside. And that can tell us a lot of things about diet as well, fiber from plants. So you’re going to have both soluble and insoluble fiber. And of course, that depends on your diet. So if you eat a diet that’s high in fiber, you’re going to have more. And as a result, you’re going to have bulkier poop.00;12;39;28 – 00;12;40;08
Speaker 1
Right?00;12;40;25 – 00;13;06;07
Speaker 2
And if you eat a diet that is very low in fiber, then you probably tend to have much smaller weight. And then you have a number of nutrients. So the nutrients that we take in, we use a lot of them, but then we expel a lot of the other ones. So things like phosphorus, things like nitrogen, potassium, and it turns out that these are really great nutrients for plants.00;13;06;09 – 00;13;42;13
Speaker 2
Okay. And what’s really interesting is that it goes beyond the synthetic fertilizers, because when you think of synthetic fertilizers, you think about phosphorus, potassium, nitrogen, those are usually the three. We are much more about complete plant food, actually. Right. And so feeding the plants but also conditioning the soil and so that that that characteristic, it has actually been extremely useful when you think about re-use for things like compost because it’s yeah, it’s plant food.00;13;42;13 – 00;13;42;23
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;13;42;23 – 00;14;06;16
Speaker 2
And it, but it’s also soil conditioner. Right. So those are those are sort of the main things, you know, the microbes obviously water, most of it probably three fourths as water. Then the microbes, the fiber, the the nutrients and then, you know, some assorted audit odds and ends oftentimes, you know, pharmaceuticals or chemicals, you know, depending on what we’ve ingested.00;14;06;24 – 00;14;29;20
Speaker 1
You now, you did something, you did a bit of an experiment with this probably more extreme than most people would would go. But I imagine this that was in part for this book. But you downloaded like three apps that that can monitor your your own stools. And so I guess my question is what, you know, was that a valuable experience?00;14;29;20 – 00;14;38;08
Speaker 1
How long did you do it? And is it something that you would recommend that other people do?00;14;38;08 – 00;15;00;26
Speaker 2
That’s they’re they’re they’re quite useful. Basically, it’s sort of an observation aid is how I look at it. Right? I mean, you could do it with a notepad. You don’t have to have special apps. I mean, these are kind of funny. I mean, what’s called Plop one’s called Pool Keeper there. There are undoubtedly many more and I’m actually still doing it.00;15;00;26 – 00;15;31;17
Speaker 2
I did it for I wanted to do it for at least a year for the book and then I just sort of got in the habit. So I’m still doing it. You know, I would recommend that maybe people try it for a month just to get in the habit of kind of observing, you know, their output. And I think the thing is, we I think people maybe don’t like to admit it to other people, but I think we all sort of secretly are, you know, thinking a lot anyway.00;15;31;17 – 00;15;33;25
Speaker 2
Right. So is is this kind of, you know, embrace.00;15;33;25 – 00;15;35;01
Speaker 1
That because I.00;15;35;13 – 00;15;44;24
Speaker 2
Think because there’s there’s there’s there’s actually a lot of extraordinarily useful things that you can tell about your body just from very, very simple visual cues.00;15;44;24 – 00;15;45;28
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;15;45;28 – 00;16;17;08
Speaker 2
You know, so there’s a Bristol stool scale, it’s a seven point scale. And this is basically giving you cues about transit time through your body. Okay. So, you know, diarrhea, obviously, that’s obvious. And then you have on the other end, constipation, right? So so there are there are there’s the Bristol stool scale. And then people have kind of added their own flourishes and, you know, it’s rabbit droppings and, you know, corn on the cob and, you know, food item versions, which is it’s kind of weird.00;16;17;08 – 00;16;44;12
Speaker 2
Maybe not the best thing to associate this with food, grapes and sausage, but but as a scale, it’s actually quite useful because you get to learn what your baseline is of, like what’s normal for you. You know, if things are going well, you’re feeling relatively healthy. This is your baseline so that you know, when you deviate from that, you know, for three or four days in a row, you know, suddenly you’re at one end or the other.00;16;44;12 – 00;17;04;23
Speaker 2
That can be an indication that, you know, things are going as they should. Yeah color is a is also a really interesting and useful one. You know, typically poop is brown for babies. There can be more colors, it can be green, it can be yellow, there can be a lot of it can be explosive.00;17;04;23 – 00;17;18;20
Speaker 1
Yes, I have two kids. So I’ve been I’ve been through that. There you go. You go. Yeah. And as I think you pointed out in the book, it’s like you get a lot more interested in and in, you know, reading the reading the feces where you have kids, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah.00;17;18;21 – 00;17;20;20
Speaker 2
Kids. Dogs. Yeah, yeah.00;17;20;21 – 00;17;21;10
Speaker 1
That’s yeah.00;17;21;18 – 00;17;23;26
Speaker 2
They tend to have these conversations on a daily basis.00;17;24;18 – 00;17;24;26
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;17;25;12 – 00;17;53;25
Speaker 2
But, but, but it’s useful, I mean, and you know, you know, even yellow or green as in about can tell you that you’re maybe not digesting food properly. It’s going through your body too quickly. Yeah. And the reason for that is normally poop is brown because it’s a breakdown in bilirubin. I believe it is, which is part of the bile that is is secreted by your liver.00;17;54;08 – 00;18;18;10
Speaker 2
Right. Look, I’m getting this right and and it starts out green and then it degrades over time and it and it and it becomes brown, but if there’s not sufficient time for it to degrade by the time it leaves your body, it’ll still be green. And so that can tell you that perhaps you’re having you know, some some issues with malabsorption, you know, that the transit is is too quick.00;18;18;19 – 00;18;31;08
Speaker 1
Yeah. So when when it goes through too fast, when you have, say, diarrhea, it’s I mean, obviously a lot more water contact. Is that basically what sort of driving the, you know, differences there?00;18;31;12 – 00;18;32;00
Speaker 2
Well, like.00;18;32;00 – 00;18;35;07
Speaker 1
It’s going through so fast that the water can’t be extracted.00;18;35;14 – 00;19;02;09
Speaker 2
That would be a separate issue. And that is typically that is typically your body trying to flush something out as quickly as possible. Yeah, right. And that can be anything from a bacterial infection to overly spicy food. Yeah. You know, there are some motility disorders that are associated with with diarrhea. Any number of drugs can give you diarrhea.00;19;02;09 – 00;19;29;24
Speaker 2
The color is more. It can be a stool that’s fairly well formed, but it may appear differently just because of the degree to which you may have malabsorption issues. Yeah. So, so, so it can be slightly similar. I mean, you can have a, you know, a diarrhea that’s appearing more green in color. But but typically the color and consistency can mean, you know, different, different things.00;19;29;24 – 00;19;38;01
Speaker 1
Yeah. So do the apps do these apps actually tell you this? They, they like interpret what, what you know visually what’s happening. Yeah.00;19;38;02 – 00;19;51;19
Speaker 2
I mean some of them try to do and that would be my caution to people who are attempting this. I were just trying this. I mean, there’s a very easy, you know, color scale that you pick and then kind of the stool scale and then any nodes, you.00;19;51;19 – 00;19;52;26
Speaker 1
Know, is is actually.00;19;52;26 – 00;19;56;09
Speaker 2
Stinky. You know, if you had corn the previous night.00;19;56;20 – 00;19;57;05
Speaker 1
You know.00;19;58;05 – 00;20;14;20
Speaker 2
What exactly B, to what point is it appearing? Because that’s fairly obvious. You can take pictures to send them to your doctor. I guess that’s probably the main intent has to pose to sharing them with your friends.00;20;14;20 – 00;20;15;07
Speaker 1
Please don’t.00;20;15;20 – 00;20;16;04
Speaker 2
Of know for.00;20;16;10 – 00;20;16;20
Speaker 1
Its own.00;20;16;20 – 00;20;40;05
Speaker 2
Sake, please, please don’t to see that from your friends. But but it is it’s very useful for observing and kind of figuring out what’s going on with your own body. I think some of them have tried to interpret that, and I think that I would be a little bit more wary about because if you’re if you’re really concerned, you should go to your doctor.00;20;40;06 – 00;20;40;17
Speaker 1
Right.00;20;40;18 – 00;21;10;23
Speaker 2
You know, and not leave it to an app. And in fact, I think some, you know, artificial intelligence algorithms have tried to train on, you know, color and consistency combinations. And I’m I’m not completely convinced that they’re, you know, fully accurate. I think, you know, still the best bet is, you know, if you’re concerned and yeah, there’s a picture and you send it to your doctor, you’re like, this doesn’t look right.00;21;10;23 – 00;21;11;05
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;21;11;20 – 00;21;15;28
Speaker 2
That would be, you know, the, the thing that you do first. Yeah, in my opinion.00;21;16;00 – 00;21;17;11
Speaker 1
So if I out of it.00;21;17;20 – 00;21;40;16
Speaker 2
I would. I mean, I just don’t think we’re there. I just don’t think we’re there yet with it. And, you know, there is even a toilet that is in a toilet and is trying to it has cameras and it has monitors and sensors. But it’s you’re sort of outsourcing your observation, right? Yeah. And so it’s basically saying, well, you don’t have to do anything differently because we’ll do all the work.00;21;41;22 – 00;21;50;07
Speaker 2
But then you have no idea of knowing like, okay, is this but is this accurate? And you know, what are you giving up by just. Yeah, not looking.00;21;50;07 – 00;21;50;19
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah.00;21;50;20 – 00;21;52;20
Speaker 2
Because it’s a pretty easy thing to do.00;21;52;20 – 00;22;00;02
Speaker 1
It’s it’s probably true, you know, that’s true of like a lot of medical things. You are, you know, your body better than anybody else.00;22;00;02 – 00;22;11;21
Speaker 2
So, you know, you know. Yeah. I mean, if you’re saying the exact same thing, you know, generally speaking, 25 days in a row and then, you know, five days, it’s it’s completely off, you know, something’s wrong.00;22;11;21 – 00;22;12;18
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.00;22;12;18 – 00;22;13;09
Speaker 2
So, yeah.00;22;14;03 – 00;22;36;09
Speaker 1
So so we’re talking about, you know, personal health and monitoring personal health by inspecting our our crap in the toilet, which actually, I got to say, like after reading after reading your book, I’m actually doing that a lot more than I probably would like because I know a lot more about what I’m supposed to be looking at. You know?00;22;36;09 – 00;22;37;01
Speaker 2
So you give a crap.00;22;37;01 – 00;22;38;24
Speaker 1
I give a crap about my crap and how.00;22;40;07 – 00;22;40;19
Speaker 2
Perfect.00;22;41;06 – 00;23;05;29
Speaker 1
But I think what got me interested in your book is this and, you know, I have a genetics background is this idea of of of sifting through, you know, municipal waste to look for clues about disease and population health. Yeah. And that that really started and picked up steam because of the COVID pandemic. Yes. Do you do you actually think that’s a useful approach?00;23;05;29 – 00;23;10;29
Speaker 1
And do you do you think we’re going to see like more of that or what?00;23;11;03 – 00;23;37;14
Speaker 2
I mean, I hope so. I hope so. So wastewater epidemiology actually has a long history and it was used initially for polio, um, back in the thirties, actually, which was a shock to me that it had been around so long and it was actually a group at Yale University who first I believe the first two cities they found it in were Detroit and Charleston, South Carolina, during polio outbreaks.00;23;38;02 – 00;23;57;09
Speaker 2
And so they had, you know, fairly crude experiments for the time because then they were, you know, trying to isolate the virus and inject monkeys with it. And so that part was a little gruesome, but thankfully, we have much more refined methods now.00;23;57;09 – 00;24;02;27
Speaker 1
So let me just ask, so what were they screening like? How were they screening for things? Because they didn’t have, you know, genomic.00;24;03;17 – 00;24;04;02
Speaker 2
Know.00;24;04;03 – 00;24;05;21
Speaker 1
PCR, DNA sequencing.00;24;05;22 – 00;24;38;26
Speaker 2
You know, basically what they were doing is capturing wastewater and seeing if they could replicate the symptoms of polio and lab animals. Oh, okay. You know, and and and they were able to do that. And and basically prove that the places where they had sampled at least some of those places had polio virus that was still active and able to infect humans and animals.00;24;39;22 – 00;24;52;04
Speaker 2
And we know that, uh, the refinement of the, that, that method now is such that you can do PCR tests that are looking for the presence of DNA or RNA.00;24;52;07 – 00;24;52;19
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;24;53;11 – 00;25;46;21
Speaker 2
And, and it’s become actually an incredibly useful public health tool. And in the same way that, you know, one of the researchers compared it to when we had the West Nile outbreak that happened in New York, I believe it was in 1999. And one of the very useful environmental indicators is that you started to see crows literally dropping from the sky because the virus was infecting the crows that actually became a really useful warning to people in the areas where they had crows and they were literally counting dead crows as a way to figure out where you might see outbreaks of the virus and wastewater epidemiology is you’re you’re basically sampling municipal waste, although you00;25;46;21 – 00;26;24;23
Speaker 2
can do it even at the the level of a building, but typically from a wastewater treatment plant. And you’re looking specifically at the presence of the pathogens of concern. So polio, COVID and monkeypox. Now have all been detected at the level of wastewater treatment plants so that, you know, that it’s in a community where you can do then is you can go up the sewer shutdown to the level of separate parts of the city and and try and figure out where in a city it is, you know.00;26;24;23 – 00;26;43;26
Speaker 2
So once you know it’s in London or New York, you can then go into some of the utility halls, do your swabbing there. And, you know, from your flow pattern, kind of where the you know, where the sewage is going and what it what it’s drawing from what part of the city.00;26;43;26 – 00;26;44;09
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;26;45;03 – 00;27;20;26
Speaker 2
And so that’s been incredibly effective at giving people a head start. And you know, of course the question is, well, what do you do with that head start then? That’s a question of public health. What kind of resources they’re going to bring to bear on that. Is that a priority? But in the book, I do talk about a couple of instances at the University of Arizona and at a facility in Yuma, Arizona, a date packing plant where they used it very effectively during the COVID pandemic to help protect students and workers.00;27;20;28 – 00;27;44;06
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. So I so I do think that it’s incredibly useful. You’ve seen a ramp up in the infrastructure. I think, with the reemergence of polio in London and New York, for example, and we’re probably going to see other viruses popping up. This is something that I really strongly feel we should be building up now that we have this capacity.00;27;44;15 – 00;27;44;28
Speaker 1
You know.00;27;45;09 – 00;27;48;08
Speaker 2
Because this isn’t going to be the last pandemic.00;27;48;08 – 00;27;53;23
Speaker 1
Yes. As as we’re already learning much sooner than I thought we would. But. Yeah, yeah.00;27;54;00 – 00;28;01;06
Speaker 2
So yeah. So it’s a it’s a it’s a fascinating field of study. And I think that it’s proven itself.00;28;01;06 – 00;28;24;01
Speaker 1
Do you think that in a big like a big city, like, you know, you know where we’re at in New York or Seattle, that, you know, you can get a level of specificity to actually do something, though. You know, you’re talking about, you know, kind of going upstream to get more specific. But, you know, how specific do you have to get to?00;28;24;01 – 00;28;31;04
Speaker 1
Oh, it’s we know it’s in this office, in this particular building. I mean, I don’t think we could get to that level of.00;28;31;04 – 00;29;06;26
Speaker 2
What you I mean, it depends on what your goal is. You know, so in some cities, for example, we know that not everyone was at equal risk for COVID, right? So there were some socioeconomic factors that made people more at risk. And, you know, they had to work, they couldn’t quarantine, they couldn’t isolate. And if you divide up the city into, you know, ten parts, 15 parts or whatever, so that you’re getting to the neighborhood level, you can over time get a trend of saying, okay, well, we’re having a consistent problem in this neighborhood.00;29;07;09 – 00;29;34;18
Speaker 2
Let’s overlay some of this socioeconomic data on that and and figure out, you know, are these people at higher risk? If so, what can we do? Can we have a vaccine clinic? Can we, you know, make sure that everyone has masks if they need them? Can I do more outreach? You know, answer questions. So so that’s a that’s a very useful thing to do.00;29;34;19 – 00;30;00;01
Speaker 2
You can do it at the level of a building or a dorm, even if they have a separate kind of sewer outtake. And you can sample right there and you know that the sewage is coming from the inhabitants of the of the dorm or workers in the building. And so at this date packing plant in Yuma, they were actually able to detect a silent.00;30;00;01 – 00;30;01;14
Speaker 1
Outbreak where.00;30;01;14 – 00;30;18;04
Speaker 2
A couple of the workers had COVID. They didn’t have symptoms. Yeah. And they you know, the the the sewage, they, you know, they would make sure that they were testing, you know, after a certain break, after people had used the bathroom on specific days of the week.00;30;20;05 – 00;30;47;24
Speaker 2
And because of that, then they were able to sort of bring in the health department to do testing for the individuals. And and so the the the workers who had an infection were sent home with pay, you know, and asked to isolate for a while. And what was great about it is that they were able to avert a much wider outbreak, you know, because of that.00;30;48;03 – 00;31;12;19
Speaker 2
And I think it also then, you know, instilled in the people there that they were trying to protect, you know, their workers. And so what was interesting is by being really transparent and, you know, explaining what they knew, what they didn’t know, why they were doing it, what they hope to learn. When it came time for a vaccination drive, almost every single worker.00;31;12;19 – 00;31;14;18
Speaker 1
Was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.00;31;14;19 – 00;31;15;16
Speaker 2
So, so.00;31;15;17 – 00;31;17;18
Speaker 1
Because they knew they were at risk, they knew.00;31;17;18 – 00;31;35;05
Speaker 2
They were at risk, but they also had the trust of the people who were doing the testing and they were, you know, being told, you know, explicitly, this is why we’re doing it. This is what we know. This is what we don’t know. And, you know, we’re happy to answer any questions. So it can actually be a really useful.00;31;35;05 – 00;31;36;09
Speaker 1
Tool to.00;31;36;09 – 00;31;45;26
Speaker 2
Gain the trust of populations so that you have the type of public health follow up that you need to protect people.00;31;46;14 – 00;31;55;09
Speaker 1
Is there any way that the public can access this data currently about wastewater epidemiology?00;31;55;14 – 00;32;28;20
Speaker 2
Yeah, it’s a lot of a lot of communities actually have dashboards out that are that are publicly available, you know, and it depends on the state and the location. Yeah, in a lot of cases it’s actually folded into some of the other indicators. So you’ll have like a hospitalization rate, for example, you’ll have the test positivity rate, you know, what are the number of cases and then, you know, what are the relative levels of in the wastewater?00;32;28;20 – 00;32;40;15
Speaker 2
And, you know, that’s still kind of an imperfect science because as you know, you can’t necessarily say based on this level, we have X number of cases.00;32;40;15 – 00;32;41;05
Speaker 1
Yeah, right.00;32;41;10 – 00;33;24;26
Speaker 2
But what you can say is following the trend over time, you know, it was really low and suddenly we see this spike. And typically what they’ve learned is that spike can predate when you see an uptick in clinical cases by a week. So it does give you some some you know, some time if you’re doing it right, like a lot of a lot of states and municipalities that are still using and have a publicly available dashboard so that you can look and see there’s a company called bio bot that’s doing a lot of testing and they have a dashboard that you can look at and they’ve divided up the country, you know, and into regions.00;33;24;26 – 00;33;31;17
Speaker 2
And so you can say, oh, yeah, you know, the the West has more right now than the, you know, the Eastern region.00;33;32;01 – 00;33;52;13
Speaker 1
Do you think do you think that will be expanded into into other. I know that people have been like looking at, you know, just more general things like diet and, you know, obesity rates. I think they can they can know, you know, based on, you microbiome kind of stuff, you know, obesity rates and quality of diet and things like that.00;33;52;13 – 00;34;02;25
Speaker 1
I mean, do you think it’ll be where you could? I’m just like imagining a future where you go to this dashboard and you go, you know, I know a lot of information about this neighborhood because we’ve got we know everything that’s in there.00;34;02;28 – 00;34;04;17
Speaker 2
Is this is this a good neighborhood to move?00;34;05;00 – 00;34;05;11
Speaker 1
Well.00;34;05;20 – 00;34;07;03
Speaker 2
Let me let me look at the wastewater.00;34;07;05 – 00;34;12;10
Speaker 1
It could you it could be used in that way, which is also you know, that’s an ethical issue, I think. But yeah.00;34;12;18 – 00;34;45;28
Speaker 2
No, you’re right. I mean, there there there are indications it’s at a community level based on like and depressants, based on, you know, beta blockers, based on, you know, the different types of pharmaceuticals. You can you can form sort of a profile. And there and it’s an imperfect, of course, but there are sort of proxies, you know, of of income, you know, based on the type of chemicals that you’re seeing, you know, the pharmaceuticals.00;34;45;28 – 00;35;19;08
Speaker 2
You know, communities have used this a lot for drug for monitoring drug use. So opioids, for example, is is a huge you know, that’s another pandemic that’s going on right now. And so actually biloba, the company that’s that’s doing a lot of the testing of wastewater was initially focusing more on opioids in some communities and kind of again with the idea of trying to direct some of the health resources to some of the hardest hit areas.00;35;20;11 – 00;35;43;02
Speaker 2
But yeah, as you get more information and as you get more of a granular view of what a neighborhood might be like, you do have these ethical issues like who deserves to know that? And like how specific can you be? Can you get to a block level and say, okay, well, you know, let’s tell you about the characteristics of the people on this block as opposed to this other block.00;35;43;12 – 00;36;13;09
Speaker 2
So I think I think there is going to be, you know, ethical issues that we’re going to have to wrestle with and address. And so I think that should be part of the science now because that’s coming. Yeah. And know there was an effort in Australia where they did something like that, but they were essentially profiling some different communities and could learn a surprising amount, you know, just based on what they found.00;36;13;10 – 00;36;14;13
Speaker 2
And in the.00;36;14;13 – 00;36;26;24
Speaker 1
Sewer. Yeah, yeah. I think I read something that Amazon was developing, some kind of monitoring thing for your toilet. And I was like, Oh, boy, here we go. This is.00;36;27;04 – 00;36;28;08
Speaker 2
The Internet. The Internet of.00;36;28;08 – 00;36;29;06
Speaker 1
Things. Yeah, let me.00;36;30;02 – 00;36;51;05
Speaker 2
Let me be on the record. Like I read. Like, the Internet of Things should not be extending to your office. No, no. And that’s and and actually, one of the funny things about this, this toilet that was being developed, I think it was some engineers from Stanford and had a little fun with it in the book, you know, maybe at their expense.00;36;51;05 – 00;37;14;22
Speaker 2
But I think in the right situation, you know, it probably has value in a medical setting. But the problem is, is that the more technology you add, the more problems you create that then technology has to address. And so one of the really funny things about this toilet is it has a number of cameras that are going to monitor, you know, how much is your output.00;37;14;22 – 00;37;30;23
Speaker 2
You know, that will also be monitoring, I guess, your urine. But they don’t know who would be using the toilet at any given time. And so the solution was to have a camera that would basically be taking a picture of your your butthole.00;37;30;23 – 00;37;31;04
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;37;31;04 – 00;37;33;24
Speaker 2
You’re an actor, right? I there.00;37;33;26 – 00;37;39;08
Speaker 1
That phrase. Yes, that’s a new and new word for word. All errors.00;37;39;11 – 00;38;03;10
Speaker 2
Here. Yeah. Here’s your here’s your word of the day. Another take. But but then they realized that they had to beef up the security because, you know, then you didn’t want people hacking into the system. And I guess, you know, having pictures of your your individual janitor. I mean, it is kind of like a fingerprint, you know, in a way.00;38;03;10 – 00;38;04;01
Speaker 2
So it can.00;38;04;13 – 00;38;04;28
Speaker 1
Identify.00;38;04;28 – 00;38;15;23
Speaker 2
Individuals. But it was just kind of a case of do we really need to have all of this information automated or can we just be more observant?00;38;15;27 – 00;38;17;06
Speaker 1
Right, right, right.00;38;17;08 – 00;38;38;19
Speaker 2
And and, you know, and technology can and can help us. I’m not anti technology and the apps that I’m using, you know, our technology. But I think there’s a limit to how far we can or should take it until we we sort of learn a little bit more about, you know, the accuracy and the security.00;38;38;20 – 00;38;39;07
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;38;39;07 – 00;38;45;12
Speaker 2
And I think I think right now, the Internet of Things just, you know, should should not be in your toilet.00;38;45;26 – 00;38;55;29
Speaker 1
Yeah. And as we’ve seen with other, you know, socials like Facebook, how they use that data and stuff, it’s it’s got to be there’s it’s got to be transparent and how to how how that data is being.00;38;55;29 – 00;39;08;02
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. How is it being used? Who has access to them? Yeah. So I mean, they’re obviously, you know, they’re going to be privacy concerns. There’s going to be ethical concerns, you know, and a number of different applications.00;39;08;07 – 00;39;08;28
Speaker 1
Yes. I mean.00;39;08;28 – 00;39;14;00
Speaker 2
It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t go forward with it, but I think we need to have that in mind.00;39;14;21 – 00;39;43;07
Speaker 1
Okay. So I wanted to switch gears a little bit. We talked about how people are using waste, human waste for, you know, epidemiological health reasons. But but how are people using waste to, you know, for an environmental purposes where how, you know, what are what are some cool and interesting things that people are doing instead of just, you know, treating it and flushing it into the ocean, which is pretty much right.00;39;43;07 – 00;39;48;13
Speaker 1
I mean, that’s the main way we get rid of waste still in the in the in the west, right lies west.00;39;48;24 – 00;40;28;25
Speaker 2
Yeah. We still either burn or landfill. A surprising amount of of of waste. And I forget what the last estimate is, but, you know, it is, I believe, like a 30 to 40%, you know, is combined is is either landfilled or burned. And and I think that’s a tremendous waste. I mean, you’re not necessarily getting rid of the problem because then you have your landfill, you know, in landfills can leak and, you know, Leach the both of the the chemicals and then you have methane that can escape from from landfills.00;40;28;25 – 00;40;31;28
Speaker 2
And we know that methane is a potent greenhouse gas.00;40;31;28 – 00;40;33;08
Speaker 1
Right.00;40;33;08 – 00;40;58;14
Speaker 2
So, yeah, so there have been a lot of there’s been a lot of technology around, well, how do we recapture some of this other potential? And so one of one of the ways that we can do that is through what’s called anaerobic digestion. Mm hmm. And that is basically mimicking what goes on in your gut. Mm hmm. You have anaerobes that are aki are archaea and archaea.00;40;59;00 – 00;41;24;26
Speaker 2
They’re. The Methanogens are the ones that produce methane gas as part of their metabolism. So it’s sort of a it’s a complicated kind of synergy with other bacteria, but they kind of are using the byproducts of digestion as, you know, the different, you know, is kind of like a, you know, in the words one animal is sort of like picking up the leftovers of something, you know, another animal.00;41;25;10 – 00;41;46;08
Speaker 2
And so our archaea with antigens make methane gas. And so, you know, you can you can tell that through viral flatulence, which is basically learning and lighting your farts on fire and let me go on the record and say that you should not do that. It is dangerous. It works. It’s not a myth.00;41;46;27 – 00;41;48;15
Speaker 1
It’s you know, this from experience is.00;41;48;15 – 00;41;49;20
Speaker 2
Not a myth. I haven’t I.00;41;49;20 – 00;41;50;21
Speaker 1
Haven’t tried this.00;41;51;04 – 00;42;03;25
Speaker 2
There there was an episode on Mythbusters where they actually prove this. Oh, yes, yes. So that is a thing. But it is not a it’s not a safe thing. And you shouldn’t try that at home.00;42;03;28 – 00;42;05;05
Speaker 1
Okay. Noted.00;42;05;06 – 00;42;34;09
Speaker 2
No, noted. But what what engineers and scientists have figured out is that in these anaerobic digestion vats, you can kind of recreate on a much bigger scale what’s going on and the waste goes in. You have the regular bacteria as well as these archaea bacteria in your vats, and you can get in a substantial amount of bio gas that’s formed.00;42;35;02 – 00;43;02;06
Speaker 2
And, and bio gases is incredibly useful because as you can use it to make electricity, you can use it for steam heat and you can also create gas, compressed gas. And in fact, wastewater treatment plant that I visited in Norway, in Oslo was using the biogas that they were creating to power 15% of their bus fleet.00;43;02;09 – 00;43;02;21
Speaker 1
Oh, wow.00;43;02;25 – 00;43;18;21
Speaker 2
Municipal busses. Wow. As well as some other vehicles. So so it’s incredibly useful and a lot of the wastewater treatment plants, in fact, have used that production to help cut down on their carbon footprint.00;43;18;26 – 00;43;19;24
Speaker 1
Mm.00;43;19;24 – 00;43;46;26
Speaker 2
To sort of make it kind of like a more, you know, a cyclical, you know, production because process our waste can be incredibly energy intensive, you know, so anything that they can do to kind of cut down on that, that consumption is going to help quite a bit. And so a lot of wastewater plants have actually become these sort of engines of ingenuity and kind of how do we reuse this and how do we reuse that?00;43;46;26 – 00;43;47;09
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;43;48;07 – 00;44;06;19
Speaker 2
So that’s one, I think really exciting example and obviously there are environmental benefits of that. I guess back to your question of how that benefits the environment, because you’re cutting down on greenhouse gases and you’re, you know, avoiding what would be these pollutants that you’re burying.00;44;06;21 – 00;44;36;01
Speaker 1
So so let me just interject. So that so like the process for for processing this this waste, this, you know, human poo, basically. And urine is you’re you’re you’re taking it and you’re digesting it further beyond what its how, how it’s already come out semi digested and then and then extracting that gas from that digestion so that so does it go into like some kind of big digester.00;44;37;08 – 00;45;06;26
Speaker 2
Yeah, it’s basically and there are different types that people use, but they’re basically like these big tanks. So part of the wastewater treatment process is you’re already using microbes because microbes are really useful at breaking down organic waste. And so the goal is that you want to break it down from a more complex form to a simpler form, and also a form that can harm you, that has pathogens to a form that’s going to be less harmful.00;45;06;26 – 00;45;07;11
Speaker 1
Yeah, right.00;45;08;12 – 00;45;26;05
Speaker 2
So some microbes are really useful for doing that, but then specific kinds of microbes, you know, that they’ve they’ve learned are also really good at basically using the food source, which is kind of other dead microbes that they’re feasting on an organic material. That’s the food.00;45;26;05 – 00;45;31;19
Speaker 1
Source. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So it’s not necessary to waste. I mean, it’s not the it’s.00;45;31;19 – 00;45;57;09
Speaker 2
The processed waste at that point. It’s basically it’s basically, you know, just carbon, you know, that they’re that they’re able to use. And so yeah, as part of that, basically feasting on, you know, kind of bacterial debris, you know, and bits of organic material, they are then able to produce this gas.00;45;57;09 – 00;45;57;21
Speaker 1
I see.00;45;58;26 – 00;46;16;04
Speaker 2
So so you’re basically convert you’re you’re taking the starting material, you’re converting it to something useful. What you’re then left with after this process is kind of the remaining solids, but those can be then reused as compost.00;46;16;05 – 00;46;16;24
Speaker 1
Mm hmm.00;46;17;24 – 00;46;30;28
Speaker 2
You know, and there are different ways to do that as well. But this goes back to the idea that poop has microbes and it has nutrients in it. And it turns out that, well, this is this is how nature works.00;46;30;29 – 00;46;31;05
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;46;31;16 – 00;47;06;10
Speaker 2
You know, I mean, for for millions and millions of years, you know, a bear poops in the woods and then green plants grow. Right, right, right. Well, we’re now we’re no different. We may have different diets, but we have figured out how to do that. You safely to to kill all of the pathogens. And what’s pretty remarkable about it is that very rich compost material can then be used for farms, but it can also be used to remediate landscapes.00;47;06;19 – 00;47;42;03
Speaker 2
So if you have a fire, for example, you can use the compost to kind of help with your forest regeneration. And the same thing has happened with a number of different even Superfund sites where they have had coal mines, they have had sand and gravel mines, they have had some contaminated soils and they have found the biosolids basically give you the substrate to grow plants that can also help to decontaminate the soil.00;47;42;28 – 00;48;04;21
Speaker 2
So like lead or arsenic, contaminated soil, for example, biosolids are really good at both, diluting out some of those contaminants. And then also by the nature, kind of the clay like nature of that, some of those particles will actually stick to the substrate and make it unavailable for plants.00;48;05;00 – 00;48;05;12
Speaker 1
Okay.00;48;05;12 – 00;48;12;07
Speaker 2
So you can actually detoxify some of these contaminated landscapes in place.00;48;12;13 – 00;48;12;22
Speaker 1
Instead.00;48;12;22 – 00;48;17;24
Speaker 2
Of having to kind of scrape off all of the soil and, you know, put it in a landfill.00;48;18;02 – 00;48;19;01
Speaker 1
Kind of like that. Okay.00;48;19;07 – 00;48;21;03
Speaker 2
So there is a potential there as well.00;48;21;03 – 00;48;34;11
Speaker 1
So so just just to just to kind of, you know, simplify it. So so you have this stream of municipal waste. One of the things that you can get from it is this bio gas. Yep. That there one is solids.00;48;34;15 – 00;48;34;25
Speaker 2
Yeah.00;48;35;00 – 00;48;38;13
Speaker 1
Is there anything else that we can pull off of that?00;48;38;16 – 00;48;42;11
Speaker 2
Yes, you can also take out phosphorus.00;48;42;14 – 00;48;42;26
Speaker 1
Okay.00;48;43;22 – 00;49;15;18
Speaker 2
So phosphorus is essential for plants. It’s one of the essential nutrients for plants. And there’s been a lot of concern about what’s been called peak phosphorus. But this idea that the phosphorus cycle, you know, takes a long time because you basically have these rocks, that kind of weather a road, you can get phosphorus from that. You know, phosphorus is used and then goes flows back into waterways, into the ocean, goes back down to the bottom, sinks.00;49;15;29 – 00;49;51;21
Speaker 2
So a long kind of process over time by which phosphorus is recycled. The problem is that a lot of the accessible stores of phosphorus that we are being depleted. And so there’s a lot of concern over the availability of this. And it turns out that one of the problems with wastewater oftentimes is excess phosphorus, because we know that if you have too much phosphorus, if you have too much nitrogen, you can actually cause these really catastrophic algal blooms.00;49;51;21 – 00;49;52;05
Speaker 1
Right.00;49;52;16 – 00;49;54;10
Speaker 2
That create dead.00;49;54;10 – 00;49;59;28
Speaker 1
Zones in the water. I know there’s a big runoff like flowing off the Mississippi in.00;50;00;05 – 00;50;12;16
Speaker 2
The Gulf of Mexico. There’s a big one there and a number of other places. So so excess phosphorus and nitrogen in places where they shouldn’t be can be extremely harmful environmentally.00;50;12;17 – 00;50;12;29
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;50;13;05 – 00;50;38;01
Speaker 2
So one of the very clever solutions is, well, instead of, you know, having this excess there and trying to figure out other ways to kind of remediate that, why don’t we capture the phosphorus which we need anyway, but in a form that we can reuse? And so one wastewater treatment plan in Oregon is called Clean Water Services. It’s just to the west of Portland.00;50;38;22 – 00;51;04;15
Speaker 2
But they’ve developed a technique where you basically are able to form these little pellets and they’re basically a little phosphorus pellets. And it’s a very ingenious system. And you can then essentially sell these back to farmers as as as phosphorus. And one of the, I think, really brilliant things is that this type of phosphorus actually works with the plants.00;51;04;15 – 00;51;25;08
Speaker 2
When the plants are hungry, for lack of a better word, of and they want more nutrients, they will send out an acid to acidify the soil. And that kind of makes the minerals in the surrounding soil more bioavailable to plants.00;51;25;08 – 00;51;25;15
Speaker 1
Right.00;51;26;09 – 00;51;41;06
Speaker 2
So they have used this exact same process for these phosphorus pellets. So the panels are relatively water insoluble, which means that they won’t wash out into the streams and cause the same kind of pollution.00;51;41;06 – 00;51;43;13
Speaker 1
I say.00;51;43;13 – 00;52;05;21
Speaker 2
So they sink down into the soil. When the plants use that, they will send out this acid. I think it’s I want to say citric acid and then the pellets start to release the phosphorus. So it is entirely dependent on the plant cues that they need more. And so it’s working with nature.00;52;05;22 – 00;52;06;02
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;52;06;07 – 00;52;24;15
Speaker 2
And so that to me was just such an elegant example of taking something that would be kind of disastrous in excess, but something that we also need in other places that are falling sort of. And how do you make it much more efficient and use it in a way that the plants want?00;52;24;15 – 00;52;25;19
Speaker 1
Right. Right.00;52;26;07 – 00;52;31;29
Speaker 2
So that’s another example of things that we’re extracting from, you know, from from sewage.00;52;32;07 – 00;52;51;20
Speaker 1
So to kind of bring it back to where we started with this conversation, we were talking about disgust, right? So I don’t think anybody has an issue with bio gas, right. Because you just burn it. Right. But as you’ve sort of highlighted in the book, there’s a lot of there’s still a lot of stigma around these biosolids and and.00;52;51;20 – 00;52;53;25
Speaker 1
Right. The phosphorus.00;52;54;06 – 00;53;14;00
Speaker 2
Right. And I would say, I mean, the phosphorus maybe less so because what you’re getting is those little pellets there. But I think the disgust is certainly an issue with the compost and soil amendments, and it’s also an issue with water reclamation, because another very important thing that we can get from wastewater is water, you know, basically reclaiming water.00;53;15;05 – 00;53;24;21
Speaker 2
And so the idea, you know, that it’s, you know, food, water and, you know, or we’re just basically, you know, spraying poop on plants, you know? I mean.00;53;24;22 – 00;53;25;03
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;53;25;05 – 00;53;51;21
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, there’s a mental image there that’s not pretty. And so I think there’s a lot of work that needs to be done to, you know, convince people that it’s safe, you know, that that’s well-regulated. But then also talk to people about of how does nature work. Right? And let’s let’s think about the ways that things have been done on it for for eons.00;53;51;28 – 00;53;52;08
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;53;52;08 – 00;54;13;20
Speaker 2
And this really isn’t any different than that, you know. So it’s the same as water like so water reclamation, for example, the idea that all water is recycled on Earth, you know, is is I think, an important concept to get across to people, you know, and there have been, you know, other authors who have suggested that, you know, the water that we’re drinking now was dinosaur food.00;54;14;03 – 00;54;15;17
Speaker 1
You know, lot.00;54;15;17 – 00;54;19;06
Speaker 2
There are other. Yeah, that’s that’s a good image.00;54;19;06 – 00;54;37;01
Speaker 1
Well and you know being science people you know you you can really say like yeah that’s that molecule is doesn’t change or that element doesn’t change right. It’s it’s you know that you know that rationally you know that. But there’s still that visceral thing.00;54;37;01 – 00;55;02;27
Speaker 2
Yes, we can grasp that, you know, mentally, but it but it’s also hard to get over the psychology of it. And so I think one of the things that can be really helpful is that when people see for themselves, how is this made safe? And so for me, I went to the groundwater, Orange County groundwater replenishment system and it is the largest facility of its kind in the world.00;55;03;15 – 00;55;34;07
Speaker 2
And I took a tour and they were pointing out the different methods of purifying the water. And it’s right next door to the wastewater treatment plant. So the wastewater treatment plant treats the water to a certain level. Then it basically goes next door and then starts another round of treatment. And so you start with Microfiltration. There’s reverse osmosis, there’s ultraviolet radiation, radiation and treatment with hydrogen peroxide.00;55;34;21 – 00;55;57;25
Speaker 2
And in each step, you can kind of see how the water is becoming increasingly clean. And at one point along the tour, there’s this sort of triple sink, and it shows what the water looks like after various treatment steps and the two outer sinks. One is kind of like a pale yellow, and the other one is pretty gross.00;55;58;24 – 00;56;01;10
Speaker 2
And the one in the middle is pure water.00;56;01;10 – 00;56;01;20
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;56;01;29 – 00;56;25;02
Speaker 2
And, you know, there are cups and so there’s a little bit of peer pressure there. Okay. We’re going to have a we’re going to have a drink of this now. And of course, it just tastes like water. And and I think one of the important things is that water so clean that if you were going to use it as drinking water, you actually have to add minerals back because it’s effectively distilled water.00;56;25;02 – 00;56;26;15
Speaker 2
Yeah, there’s nothing in it. It’s just.00;56;26;15 – 00;56;27;14
Speaker 1
Pure H2O. It’s just.00;56;27;14 – 00;56;57;16
Speaker 2
Pure H2O. And it would start leaching some of your minerals from your body. Yeah. So it turns out that that is perfect for brewers because it’s a blank slate. They can recreate any kind of city water profile they want, such as Munich, and they can create beer with it. And so beer has actually became become a conduit for having these discussions and for getting people kind of past the psychological barrier.00;56;57;16 – 00;56;57;27
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;56;58;20 – 00;57;28;02
Speaker 2
So that’s water compost, you know, it’s the same thing basically is is seeing is believing. And I think again, knowing what the treatment’s taps are, knowing what it’s tested for, what are the regulations, I think utilities really have an obligation to be clear and transparent with people about here’s what we test for, here’s how regularly. Here’s the test scores that you can you know, you can find.00;57;29;28 – 00;57;47;08
Speaker 2
But I think also just kind of seeing it and smelling it. Yeah, you know, for me, that was a big barrier and I use it in my gardens, I’ve used it in the vegetable gardens, I’ve used it in the flower gardens because I wanted to practice what I preach. I wasn’t going to make anyone do something that I wouldn’t be willing to do myself.00;57;47;08 – 00;57;48;04
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely.00;57;49;17 – 00;58;23;03
Speaker 2
But but seeing the product and and smelling it and basically understanding, well, this is you know, this is a at this point, it’s essentially dirt. You know, it’s a soil amendment. And it happens to be extraordinarily effective for nourishing plants. And so one program in Tacoma, just south of here, has created an entire community gardening program around their product, which is called Tag Grow, which is short for Tacoma Grow.00;58;23;21 – 00;58;57;20
Speaker 2
And it is a recycled bio solid soil amendment, perfectly safe and and it’s incredible because you can see these gardens and see how flourishing the plants are and so this is distributed free of charge to these gardens. They’re not required to use it. They can use typical compost, but when the gardeners who aren’t using it, what their neighbors vegetables look like with it, they said, I want that, I want I want that.00;58;58;23 – 00;59;22;22
Speaker 2
So, so that’s been a really successful program and it basically sort of a catalyst for communities coming together to garden. So that’s been kind of an extraordinary thing to, to, to see and tour. But I think ultimately it just comes down to, you know, seeing is believing and being able to trust the utility or the government entity that is producing this.00;59;22;22 – 00;59;22;29
Speaker 1
Yeah.00;59;23;06 – 00;59;34;01
Speaker 2
And so, so it really is incumbent upon them to be transparent and to say, okay, we get it. We understand there’s a disgust factor here. Let’s help you get past it.00;59;34;02 – 00;59;48;13
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Well, we’re running short on time, so I think we’ll end there. But it’s been a fascinating discussion. The, you know, we barely scratched the surface of flesh depth.00;59;49;10 – 00;59;50;10
Speaker 2
Service staff there.00;59;50;10 – 00;59;59;23
Speaker 1
Hannah dipped our hand in. So but yes, the book again, the book is Flesh and then this will be available in September.00;59;59;23 – 01;00;00;20
Speaker 2
September 13th.01;00;00;20 – 01;00;01;01
Speaker 1
And.01;00;01;07 – 01;00;02;01
Speaker 2
You can preorder it.01;00;02;01 – 01;00;05;06
Speaker 1
And where else can people find you online?01;00;05;14 – 01;00;18;13
Speaker 2
Right. So people can find me either on Twitter, I’m Seattle, Bryn or they can go to my website which is Brant Nelson dot com and I’m more than happy to answer any questions that people might have.01;00;18;25 – 01;00;20;01
Speaker 1
Any of their crappy question.01;00;20;01 – 01;00;22;11
Speaker 2
Is there a question frame on it?01;00;22;19 – 01;00;25;02
Speaker 1
All right. Awesome. Thanks so much, finger. Yeah. Talking to you.01;00;25;03 – 01;00;25;22
Speaker 2
Thanks so much, Eric.01;00;25;24 – 01;00;39;21
Speaker 1
All right, great.